do Christians still sin? heard two different takes on this. am confused now

[Skinski7]

Skinski,

Please answer this,

Jesus on the night He was betrayed,prayed in the garden,says He has not lost one of them except for Judas,and they have kept His word. (Mind you this is after He has rebuked the disciples for being a perverse generation and has rebuked them over and over) Mind you Jesus already knows that within an hour,the disciples will scatter, Peter will cut the ear off the servants head,and not only that Peter will deny Him three time before the night is over. Peter has already implied that Jesus lied about Peter denying Him,and years later Paul will rebuke Peter for being a hypocrite. Yet not once does Jesus pray that He is losing them or that they will be lost for a time,the question is why didn't He,why did He say He has not lost one and not pray a preventative pray about losing them?

Many of you folks don't even bat an eye at the post above by Haz who blatantly twists the scriptures to teach a purely positional or forensic salvation. Haz blatantly excises scriptures from the Bible and carefully omits the surrounding context that relates to actual conduct and the actual escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Instead you come forth with a question implying unconditional eternal security.

It would not matter if I answered your question or not because you are already convinced in your mind that unconditional eternal security is the truth. I have answered a plethora of other questions and my answers are just ignored as people move onto the next question and then eventually return to the original questions. You are not asking those questions from a heart genuinely set on finding the truth, you are asking those questions in order to find some avenue with which to divert and undermine, which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus.

Many of you folks don't truly believe the Bible. To you it is a menu of isolated verses and passages from which you can pick and choose that which tickles the ears in order to establish a dogma which justifies ongoing sin. In fact you listen to teachers who do the picking and choosing for you and many of you just repeat their rhetoric. These teachers in fact are simply repeating what they were taught by other teachers and it goes all the way up the line. All you have done is create an image of Jesus using the very Scriptures God gave us and then you bow down and worship that image.

Your gospel is false. Your salvation is false. You salvation is a "notion" which has been completely disconnected the results of a genuine salvation experience as taught by the Bible.

Satan is a master deceiver and he has managed to craft a Gospel message which eliminates the crucifixion of the flesh and thus the escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust. Thus converts under the false system remain in bondage to their lusts and get to have their ears tickles by people like Haz who basically tell them because they "believe in Jesus" they can sin and not surely die.

The twisted rhetoric which Haz posted is found all through these forums and VERY FEW people oppose it which reveals that the vast majority identify with it and thus adhere to the same paradigm. Jesus warned that it would be MANY who professed His name that would be rejected for remaining workers of iniquity, many who He never knew, for they never were genuinely reconciled. These workers of iniquity may have a notion of being saved "positionally" while they still "work iniquity" yet the utter horror and shock they will experience when rejected by Jesus is not to be taken lightly.

The Bible is full of warnings about deception and many of you are very deceived.

 

[starfield]

Hi purpldaisies80,

I differ from both these scenarios you raised.

Whilst Christians are not perfect in our physical state, these failings are not what determines whether we are sinner or not.
Scripture confirms that in Christ we are justified, hence Satan, the accuser, can no longer charge us with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Firstly, lets consider what the definition of "sin" is. God's definitions of sin are the only one's to use. Man's ambiguous traditional notion that "sin" is bad behavior, is not supported in scripture.

Below are a few examples of God's definitions of sin:
Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17 (Christians are righteous in Christ, so in this regard we do not sin)
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9 (Christians believe in Jesus, so in this regard we do not sin)
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4 (Christians are not under the law, so in this regard we do not sin)

Regarding sin/transgression of the law, Christians cannot be accused of this sin as we are not under the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death, (Rom 8:2).
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness," Rom 10:4
Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (Rom 3:19).
“the law was not made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).

Only our past sin was dealt with at the cross.
Rom 3:25: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"

It was only our past sins that were forgiven. That means there is no more forgiveness of sin after this as sin was finally dealt with at the cross. Christ's sacrifice totally purged/cleansed us of sin. After that there is no more subsequent sin because our righteousness is not judged by deeds of the law anymore. Instead our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

When we are in Christ, believing in him, then we are righteous (Rom 4:5), sanctified (Heb 10:10), holy (Rom 11:16) and perfected (Heb 10:14), hence Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with sin, Rom 8:33.

Consider also 1Pet 4:18
“If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We can't be both.

In Christ we have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
How have we "ceased from sin?

We believe in Jesus, thus our old man has been crucified with him, Rom 6:6.
Now, I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20. And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5

1Pet 4:1
“Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin”.

And this is also confirmed by 1John 3:9
“Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God”.

Truly Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).

And as for those physical failings that we still see, remember that body is already dead (by faith) because of sin.
Rom 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

As your body is already dead (by faith) because of sin (crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) therefore Satan, the accuser, can no longer charge you with sin, Rom 8:33.

On a separate point, regarding our obvious physical failings/wrongs, we will not profit in doing them. Although our righteousness is not determined by this, there are physical consequences for any wrongs we do. Consider King David with his adultery/murder. He was disciplined by God.

But in regards to our righteousness, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We are born of God (1John 5:1) and cannot sin (1John 3:9). So Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with sin, Rom 8:33.

Now regarding the willful sin spoken about in Heb 10:26, this is speaking about turning back to the law/10 commandments for righteousness. Note Gal 2:18 describing how turning back to the law for righteousness makes you a sinner.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.(Sinner)

Now when reading Heb 10:26:
For if we sin wilfully (turning back to the law thus making yourself a transgressor, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (the gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Turning back to the law/10 commandments for righteousness is unbelief in Jesus. And unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of.

Our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29

If you believe in Jesus, then you are born of God, 1John 5:1 and thus cannot sin because his seed (Christ) is in you, 1John 3:9. You're righteous in Christ hence nobody, (not even Satan the accuser) can charge you with sin, Rom 8:33

Haz, you claim that believers commit physical failings but they do not sin, this implies that those physical failings are not sin then why are they disciplined for them if they are not sin?

You also say believers cannot be forgiven for the future sins they commit. How do you reconcile that with Jesus being our advocate if we sin and 1 John 1:9?

It appears you believe salvation is only on a judicial basis without reformation of conduct in essence one is positionally saved from sin while being practically enslaved to it since we are no longer under the law. You provided scriptures and greatly misinterpreted them to back up this idea. I suggest you read Gal 5:13-26, James 2:17-26, 1 John 3:7.

Finally, is obedience to God optional for believers?

 

[SarahM777]

Many of you folks don't even bat an eye at the post above by Haz who blatantly twists the scriptures to teach a purely positional or forensic salvation. Haz blatantly excises scriptures from the Bible and carefully omits the surrounding context that relates to actual conduct and the actual escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Instead you come forth with a question implying unconditional eternal security.

It would not matter if I answered your question or not because you are already convinced in your mind that unconditional eternal security is the truth. I have answered a plethora of other questions and my answers are just ignored as people move onto the next question and then eventually return to the original questions. You are not asking those questions from a heart genuinely set on finding the truth, you are asking those questions in order to find some avenue with which to divert and undermine, which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus.

Nah,

I think the issue is that the answer goes against your beliefs. Peter was in sin at the time and what Jesus said does point to eternal security,you can't get around it.

Skinski quote

" You are not asking those questions from a heart genuinely set on finding the truth, you are asking those questions in order to find some avenue with which to divert and undermine, which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus."

So now you are God and you know what is in my heart? Do you know Jesus? Have you seen Him? Have you been laid flat by His glory? Has your heart ever been pierced by His gaze into the very depths of your soul? Do you even have the smallest idea of His glory,purity,and Holiness? I am His and He has confirmed it over and over again. The Holy Spirit testifies that I am His daughter.

Skinski quote

Your gospel is false. Your salvation is false. You salvation is a "notion" which has been completely disconnected the results of a genuine salvation experience as taught by the Bible.

So are you saying we are not declared righteous by faith and Jesus Christ is not our righteousness? Or is your righteousness because of works?

Satan is a master deceiver and he has managed to craft a Gospel message which eliminates the crucifixion of the flesh and thus the escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust. Thus converts under the false system remain in bondage to their lusts and get to have their ears tickles by people like Haz who basically tell them because they "believe in Jesus" they can sin and not surely die.

Where did I ever say that we are not to pickup our cross and die to ourselves? Boiled down it will come down to this and that is to know God,to love God,to trust God and to obey God. Where did I ever say otherwise?

The Bible is full of warnings about deception and many of you are very deceived.

Are you so sure that you are not the one being deceived? Do you have joy in your salvation,and do you have the peace that passes all understanding or are you in fear because you really don't know?

 

[MaggieMye]

• 1 John 3:9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
• 1 John 5:18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

No one born of God/born again CHOOSES to sin, whether in thought, word or deed. But we ARE fallable and so we do sin WITHOUT INTENT. It is then that we have the Cross to go to. Sin WITH INTENT is proof that we are NOT born of God because if we ARE born of God, then His seed is in us, Holy Spirit is IN us and He convicts us at every turn and IF we are born of God That alone is all it takes to cause us to STOP and repent, going to the Cross.
Anyone that sins, knowingly, is not born of God because sinning, purposefully, is direct defiance of God and His written word and it is a disconnection from the Father WITH INTENT!

Can anyone that truly loves the Lord defy His love and go against Him? No! But on occasion, especially in our thoughts, we do not act in love ...or think in love...and that is sin to be confessed and repented of at the Cross. If we do not confess and repent, we are of the World, NOT of the Kingdom of God.
Maggie

 

[Meshullam]

Hi. I have heard two opposing views on Christians and sins.some say that christians do sin and if they truly repent God forgives. Others say that Christians don't sin and if they do they are not saved. Am also confused over wilful sin stuff. Aren't most sins wilful? We have a choice surely

yes, all of mankind still sin.

The price is 'cashed in' as it were, upon our deaths.

'For God has accursed all mankind in disobedience that he may have mercy on all'.

'Because anyone who dies is freed from sin'.

 

[Meshullam]

• 1 John 3:9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
• 1 John 5:18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

No one born of God/born again CHOOSES to sin, whether in thought, word or deed. But we ARE fallable and so we do sin WITHOUT INTENT. It is then that we have the Cross to go to. Sin WITH INTENT is proof that we are NOT born of God because if we ARE born of God, then His seed is in us, Holy Spirit is IN us and He convicts us at every turn and IF we are born of God That alone is all it takes to cause us to STOP and repent, going to the Cross.
Anyone that sins, knowingly, is not born of God because sinning, purposefully, is direct defiance of God and His written word and it is a disconnection from the Father WITH INTENT!

Can anyone that truly loves the Lord defy His love and go against Him? No! But on occasion, especially in our thoughts, we do not act in love ...or think in love...and that is sin to be confessed and repented of at the Cross. If we do not confess and repent, we are of the World, NOT of the Kingdom of God.
Maggie

That's not true.

Ever got unnecissarily angry at someone? Well you actually have control over that anger, but we in the west see it as a product of another person instead of a prodcut of ourselves. Anger is a sin.

Ever festered over someone? We allow ourselves to do that.

The Spirit of Holiness shows through many people, even people who mightn't be 'christian'. Compassion is of the spirit of holiness.

Trust upon the spirit of holiness is putting trust in compassion, mercy and forgiveness amongst other good things, as opposed to anger and spite and resentment.

And many people, even believers, do both.

Paul was baptized.

Yet he said 'I partake of that which I know I should not do'.

Nobody is perfect, but having compassion is very much what we are aiming for.

John is talking about Jesus.

He who was born of God, keeps God (with him).

No one who is born of God (ie. the SEED of God) practices sin.

Well EVERYONE practices (physically DOES) sin. Everyone. No exceptions, except for Jesus.

 

[Skinski7]

Nah,

I think the issue is that the answer goes against your beliefs. Peter was in sin at the time and what Jesus said does point to eternal security,you can't get around it.

Skinski quote

" You are not asking those questions from a heart genuinely set on finding the truth, you are asking those questions in order to find some avenue with which to divert and undermine, which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus."

So now you are God and you know what is in my heart? Do you know Jesus? Have you seen Him? Have you been laid flat by His glory? Has your heart ever been pierced by His gaze into the very depths of your soul? Do you even have the smallest idea of His glory,purity,and Holiness? I am His and He has confirmed it over and over again. The Holy Spirit testifies that I am His daughter.

Skinski quote

Your gospel is false. Your salvation is false. You salvation is a "notion" which has been completely disconnected the results of a genuine salvation experience as taught by the Bible.

So are you saying we are not declared righteous by faith and Jesus Christ is not our righteousness? Or is your righteousness because of works?

Satan is a master deceiver and he has managed to craft a Gospel message which eliminates the crucifixion of the flesh and thus the escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust. Thus converts under the false system remain in bondage to their lusts and get to have their ears tickles by people like Haz who basically tell them because they "believe in Jesus" they can sin and not surely die.

Where did I ever say that we are not to pickup our cross and die to ourselves? Boiled down it will come down to this and that is to know God,to love God,to trust God and to obey God. Where did I ever say otherwise?

The Bible is full of warnings about deception and many of you are very deceived.

Are you so sure that you are not the one being deceived? Do you have joy in your salvation,and do you have the peace that passes all understanding or are you in fear because you really don't know?

Jesus knew what was going to occur to Peter and that he was going to be sifted like wheat and that at the end of it he would convert. Such foreknowledge of Jesus expressed in this special case does in no way teach that a Christian can engage in sin and not be lost.

Your view is that a Christian can engage in sin but will be disciplined and brought back, but in the meantime they still remain justified. You are clearly blind to the dangers of this belief for there are two main things I clearly see.

1. You have disconnected manifest conduct from the faith that God counts as righteousness. Thus faith to you must be simply "mental assent" as opposed to "faithfulness."

2. You encourage complacence and offer a false security for those engaged in the sins of the flesh. You message convinces people not to worry to much about iniquity for God has them covered, thus there is no pressing need to flee the wrath of God or depart iniquity.


Your right I cannot see into your heart, but I can sure judge the words you type. The message you promote is diametrically opposed to the plain teachings of Scripture. This is why I can make comment on passages like 1Joh 3:9-10 and speak about MANIFEST and you will remain silent on that passage.

I can answer your questions about the passages you present but you cannot do likewise because your doctrines don't harmonise with the whole counsel of God. Mine do!

Here is another passage that the promoters of unconditional eternal security have no answer for...

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I have seen them dance around it and spew rhetoric. Yet I have never ever seen someone address the warning is specifically makes. It is the same with Heb 10:26-29 in regards to ongoing willful transgression. People explain it away as people who were never saved to begin with despite that fact that verse 29 specifically states " the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified." A person that has been sanctified by the blood of Christ (Hen 10:22) is a person that has been saved.

You just dance like all the others Sarah.

You continue to twist my words and imply meanings which do not exist. God declares an individual righteous by their faith but your definition of faith is not the same as the Biblical definition. Faith is FAITHFULNESS and involves submission to the Lord because one believes and trusts in Him, it involves a firm conviction within the mind. This is why there is no such thing as disobedient faith.

Christ is only your righteousness IF you abide in Him and that means you are walking after the Spirit as opposed to walking after the flesh. Unconditional Eternal Security teaches that there can be times when a Saint of God can be walking in the lusts of the flesh and yet still be in Christ. There is no such thing. You cannot be IN Christ and IN sin at the same time.

We are slaves to whom we obey, either obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death. It is impossible to serve both and the doctrine of unconditional eternal security by NECESSITY implies that one can serve both.

You don't have to say that you don't have to pick up your cross and deny yourself, your doctrine implies that you do not have to because it teaches that one can be in a justified state whilst one is not picking up their cross and is not denying themselves, and is not following Jesus. You cannot have your cake an eat it to.

One of the biggest contradictions of the Unconditional Eternal Security message is that the doctrine clearly teaches that one can be secure in a state of sin (the only condition is that the sin is not ongoing for too long) and yet at the same time teach that someone engaged in sin can have no assurance. The OSAS people will cry out, "there is no sin I can commit which can make me lose my salvation" and then they will say "well that person who is committing those sins was probably never saved to begin with." The whole scheme is nonsense.

Salvation by definition is having been SET FREE FROM SIN. Both the dominion (whereby we are condemned) and the bondage (by which we were addicted). Therefore any individual who is engaged in acts of sin is by definition not saved. An individual frolicking around in the mud pit cannot claim he is washed clean.

Yes I have plenty of joy. Yet I do not take any joy in seeing so many people being deceived with the lie that they can sin and not surely die. People love that lie of Satan and they love his ministers who have disguised themselves as ministers of righteousness who tickle their ears with smooth sayings.

 

[mark54]

which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus.

.

You are mentioning the Pharisees a lot Skinsky
It's also good to remeber that they crushed people with impossible demands that they themselves did not keep/live up to
They insisted the law was kept(a person did not sin, for sin is the transgression of the law) But Jesus said to them

Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law(does not sin). Why are you trying to kill me
John7:1

Lets hope no one today crushes people with demands they do not themselves keep, or be guilty of what the Pharisses were, preaching earnestly that others must not sin/break the law, while according to Christ they were guilty themselves of what they earnestly stressed others must not do to know/be acceptable to God

 

[haz]

Very deceptive twisting of the Scripture you have done there.

You have snipped and de-contextualised many passages in order to promote the view that a Christian does not sin in the context of being identified in Christ while practically they still actually do.

Hi skinski7,

We have discussed this before and as you may recall I have shown how it's the doctrine you follow that deceptively twists scripture out of context to deceive others under the law for righteousness.

I see you still are not open to spiritual understanding.

It is your MANIFEST CONDUCT which reveals whom you belong to and not some abstract notion of being identified with Jesus because you "believe" in Him. You left out the verse with MANIFEST in it because it contradicts your deceptive assertion.

Belief is more than a mental assent to the existence of Jesus and the work that he performed. Belief is the internal conviction by which one is a "doer of the word." This is why throughout the Bible belief is contrasted with unbelief in the context obedience versus disobedience.

When Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from sin and death he is speaking of the present walk of ABIDING IN CHRIST which means YOU ARE WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT. An individual cannot be walking after the lusts of the flesh and be abiding in Christ at the same time.

The lusts of the flesh is what you are following in your desire to be under the law. And the doctrine you follow twists scripture to deceive others to be under the law for justification. This is unbelief. This is not abiding in Christ.

2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The complicated doctrine you follow states that we're saved by grace, but adds that if you do not keep the law/10 commandments as evidence of your salvation, then you are of the devil.

Now to keep the law means perfect obedience, as described in James 2:10. It does not mean partial obedience.
Have you kept the law perfectly since the day you received Christ?

God is going to judge everyone by their CONDUCT.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Again you reveal the justification by works of the law doctrine here.

Interestingly the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved by grace and his physical conduct was not even considered.
Clearly God gave this example of His grace with the thief on the cross to counter those preaching the doctrine of self-righteous works like you preach.

When the Bible says that God imputes faith as righteousness it is in the context of God looking at the heart as opposed to us having to do outward works to earn or make us righteous. The kind of faith that God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5) is a faith that has an associated walk (Rom 4:11-12), a faith that involves a full persuasion of the mind (Rom 4:20-22), a faith which obeys (Heb 11:8).

Folks, don't fall for those who isolate and twist the Scripture unto their own destruction.

The walk of believers is a walk of faith. And believers obey the gospel, believing in Jesus.
Our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29.
God's will for us to obey is to believe in Jesus, John 6:40
The sin that the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9

The doctrine you follow mixes grace with works of the law, and this cannot be.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You follow a lukewarm doctrine, Rev 3:16, and God call on you to repent, Rev 3:19.

 

[haz]

Haz, you claim that believers commit physical failings but they do not sin, this implies that those physical failings are not sin then why are they disciplined for them if they are not sin?

You also say believers cannot be forgiven for the future sins they commit. How do you reconcile that with Jesus being our advocate if we sin and 1 John 1:9?

It appears you believe salvation is only on a judicial basis without reformation of conduct in essence one is positionally saved from sin while being practically enslaved to it since we are no longer under the law. You provided scriptures and greatly misinterpreted them to back up this idea. I suggest you read Gal 5:13-26, James 2:17-26, 1 John 3:7.

Finally, is obedience to God optional for believers?

But you are in disobedience to God in that you deny that you are righteous in Christ by faith and need works of the law as proof before you will believe that righteousness has been imputed by a Christians faith.

You quoted scriptures without spiritual understanding.
Consider the context of 1John 1:9 for example. Reading this chapter from the start we see that it speaks to non-believers in in sin of unbelief. Note that it declares eternal life to them so that they also may have fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

A question for you. Have you perfectly obeyed the law/10 commandments since the day you received Christ?

 

[RedTent]

My friend Tim lived this out. He spent every night drinking, he was not true to his wife, he simply did not know Jesus. One day someone took him to church with them and he met Jesus, not as an idea but personally. As a dynamic force in his life.

Tim said I'll let Jesus take over my life, I'll let Him run it from now on.

At that moment, if you and I could have seen with spiritual eyes, we would have seen something happening to Tim that the bible calls born again. Something was added to Tim so he could see and understand spiritually. He couldn't have been forgiven of his sins before because he couldn't understand who God was, now his spiritual eyes were opened, Tim could understand and with that was given the ability be cleansed so he could live forever with God. This ability to understand was now possible for him from that time on. We can't ask a wild idea to forgive, but we can ask our creator.

For Tim, he has no desire to go back to the time before this happened. He has been learning more and more of God ever since. The drinking and even the smoking stopped at that moment, he repaired his marriage.

However, tim can choose to not follow God at any time. That would probably mean that he would go back to a life of sin. It isn't that he doesn't live a life of sin, but that he follows God's ways as best he can and asks for and accepts God's forgiveness.

 

[carey]

Here's what I believe
Yes we still sin. We will continue to sin until we receive our glorified bodies. Why? One we were all born into sin, and because of our carnal nature. Anyone that says they don't sin is a liar. Children who are innocent lie before they even know what a lie is. We lie, covet, lust, we may even judge others. Here's the good part though :
We are covered by the blood of Jesus, we are not perfect, the only perfect and sinless man that ever walked this earth is Jesus. Does His grace give us liberty to continue in our sin? No, though we sin, when we recognize we are sinning we repent, now we don't willfully sin and say in our hearts it's ok Jesus will forgive me, but we turn away from our sin. Even paul struggled with this "I do what I do not want to do ... but sin is living in me"

 

[Stephen63]

Yes, we all sin. As long as we live in corrupt flesh, we will sin. What most folks don't realize is there's a difference between committing one sin while battling with the flesh and living in sin. Anyone living in sin, whether they confess Christ are not, will reap death according to the Scripture:
James 1:14-15 [SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

NLT Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. [SUP]15 [/SUP]These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

 

[crossnote]

Many of you folks don't even bat an eye at the post above by Haz who blatantly twists the scriptures to teach a purely positional or forensic salvation. Haz blatantly excises scriptures from the Bible and carefully omits the surrounding context that relates to actual conduct and the actual escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Instead you come forth with a question implying unconditional eternal security.

It would not matter if I answered your question or not because you are already convinced in your mind that unconditional eternal security is the truth. I have answered a plethora of other questions and my answers are just ignored as people move onto the next question and then eventually return to the original questions. You are not asking those questions from a heart genuinely set on finding the truth, you are asking those questions in order to find some avenue with which to divert and undermine, which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing when they questioned Jesus.

Many of you folks don't truly believe the Bible. To you it is a menu of isolated verses and passages from which you can pick and choose that which tickles the ears in order to establish a dogma which justifies ongoing sin. In fact you listen to teachers who do the picking and choosing for you and many of you just repeat their rhetoric. These teachers in fact are simply repeating what they were taught by other teachers and it goes all the way up the line. All you have done is create an image of Jesus using the very Scriptures God gave us and then you bow down and worship that image.

Your gospel is false. Your salvation is false. You salvation is a "notion" which has been completely disconnected the results of a genuine salvation experience as taught by the Bible.

Satan is a master deceiver and he has managed to craft a Gospel message which eliminates the crucifixion of the flesh and thus the escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust. Thus converts under the false system remain in bondage to their lusts and get to have their ears tickles by people like Haz who basically tell them because they "believe in Jesus" they can sin and not surely die.

The twisted rhetoric which Haz posted is found all through these forums and VERY FEW people oppose it which reveals that the vast majority identify with it and thus adhere to the same paradigm. Jesus warned that it would be MANY who professed His name that would be rejected for remaining workers of iniquity, many who He never knew, for they never were genuinely reconciled. These workers of iniquity may have a notion of being saved "positionally" while they still "work iniquity" yet the utter horror and shock they will experience when rejected by Jesus is not to be taken lightly.

The Bible is full of warnings about deception and many of you are very deceived.

Satan is also the accuser of the brethren but I guess you don't consider us as 'brethren' except maybe false brethren.

 

[starfield]

Interestingly the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved by grace and his physical conduct was not even considered.

The thief had a death-bed salvation; he acknowledged his sins, repented, and believed in Jesus thus was justified by faith at that moment then he died. Peradventure he was released and continued his criminal acts he would no longer be in a justified state for no one can serve two masters, no one can walk on the broad and narrow way simultaneously. You always bring up the thief on the cross argument to defend antinomianism.

One passage that refutes your doctrine is Jesus' teaching in Matt 7:16-20:
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
If one's fruit (works) is corrupt then they are indeed corrupt, not positionally incorrupt whilst practically corrupt - Jesus never taught such message. John also stated the same thing, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother (1 John 3:7, 10). Verse 10 does not say "...doeth not righteousness is of God positionally", but that is what you teach.

It is only those who obey God that have eternal salvation: Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The walk of believers is a walk of faith. And believers obey the gospel, believing in Jesus.
Our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29.
God's will for us to obey is to believe in Jesus, John 6:40
The sin that the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9

Yes. We walk by faith by submitting our lives to God out of love because without faith it is impossible to please Him. Obedience is an indispensable component of belief in God, otherwise it's no different than the demons' belief (James 2:19).

The doctrine you follow mixes grace with works of the law, and this cannot be.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul also told the Gentiles Christians that though they were under the liberty of grace and not the law they shouldn't use that liberty as a license to walk according to the flesh but love one another. If one loves their neighbour they won't desire to commit evil against them, if one loves God they will have disdain for sin, hunger and thirst for His word, and they will desire to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. Galatians 5:13, 14 says For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Then He said if they do walk after the flesh they won't inherit the kingdom. Gal 5:19-21:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

He even told them that if they do not continue in the goodness of God they too will be cut off. Rom 11:22- Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Now who does Paul's teaching actually favour? One who is saying we ought to obey God because we have faith in Him or one who is saying we are under grace thus can sin every single day and remain justified?

You follow a lukewarm doctrine, Rev 3:16, and God call on you to repent, Rev 3:19.

It is your doctrine that encourages spiritual lukewarmness because one will hold that all they have to do is believe there is a God, a mental knowledge of God, but their conduct has absolutely no bearing on their salvation. That is what James was speaking against in his epistle...
James 2:17-19
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jesus told the churches in Revelation that he would spue them out because they were lukewarm, remove their candlestick if they don’t repent and do their first work. Those verses refute unconditional eternal security.

But you are in disobedience to God in that you deny that you are righteous in Christ by faith and need works of the law as proof before you will believe that righteousness has been imputed by a Christians faith.

I don't deny the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. The bible does teach imputed righteousness but licentious teachers have twisted this biblical doctrine to preach that because of Christ's righteousness one is positionally saved but practically enslaved in sin and thus obedience and godly living is thrown out the window.

There is righteousness that justifies the sinner and righteousness of Christian living. The latter is what these licentious teachers ignore and dismiss as self-righteousness, works salvation, legalism, etc. Apostle Paul established that one is justified by faith in Christ apart from the works of the law but also said we are servants of whom we obey whether obedience unto righteousness, we are workers together with God, and we are God's workmanship created in Christ unto good works. This is because God is cares about the godly living of those whom He has imputed righteousness upon. Imputed righteousness is simply how God justifies the repentant sinner at conversion. A sinner has no righteousness in and of themself (Isaiah 64:6, Rom 3:23, Rom 10:3) before God, they are dead in sin, and all their righteous deeds are as filthy rags thus Jesus, the Righteous Holy One, paid the price for our righteousness. Once the sinner repents and places their faith in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins they will be forgiven and declared righteous and receive the spotless robe of righteousness by faith (Rom 3:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Phil 3:9). However, now that they have that righteousness do they have it on daily? Does their conduct reflect that of one who is clad with the righteousness of Christ?

Yes, our righteousness comes through the atoning work of Christ but this does not negate our being pure in heart and godly by God’s grace. On the contrary licentious teachers say believers’ practicing godliness suggests a meritorious salvation when in fact the bible states that believers have to be righteous and that without holiness no man shall see God. The bible says that those who practice righteousness are righteous (1 John 3:7). The bible also says that believers are disciplined for sin so that they might be partakers of God's holiness and bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness (Heb 12:10-11) so in essence that righteousness was lacking in order to be disciplined. Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. We are enabled to bear the fruit of righteousness by abiding in Christ which entails total reliance on Him and such conduct brings glory unto God.

God's grace forgives future sins when they are repented of, yet you say God only forgives past sins because the sins your commit after conversion are not actually sins but just “physical failings”, then I ask why God chastises for physical failings that are not sins and you don’t respond. Your idea of grace is simply that it’s a leeway to sin and we can live in anarchy and still be assured of our salvation.

Jesus said those who hear and do His words are like the wise builder. James said we ought to be doers of God’s word and not hearers only. Why do you disconnect the doing from faith, Sir?

 

[Bookends]

IMO, Sinless perfection will not take place in our physical bodies until death and when our bodies are raised anew. However, whether sinless perfection, completely sanctification is possible or not, does not effect the position we have in Christ if we diligently seek God himself, God's mercy, grace, love, compassion, etc. etc. in a humble fashion. There may be some people out there claiming to be Christians who simple think of Christ as a life insurance policy, but have no real intent to follow him in all aspects of their life.

Look at all the lives presented to us in the bible, were any of them completely sinless, are there any claims made by the bible that anyone besides Christ is sinless?

Psalm 37: 23-24
[SUP]23 [/SUP]The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

 

[Bookends]

So if we do wilfully disobey we can repent then? Good

Repentance is the acknowledgement of our sin with the intent of NOT going back to that sin. However, some sins are harder to eradicate and leave behind then others, and can cause us to struggle with sin. But with the Lord's help we can overcome, you must abide in Him and diligently seek Him with a contrite heart. And if you do this, you will find yourself being transformed by His Word, and your desire will no longer be to sin, but praise to Him and love Him more. Your desire to sin lessons, while your desire for God increases.

 

[haz]

The thief had a death-bed salvation; he acknowledged his sins, repented, and believed in Jesus thus was justified by faith at that moment then he died. Peradventure he was released and continued his criminal acts he would no longer be in a justified state for no one can serve two masters, no one can walk on the broad and narrow way simultaneously

Your claim above implies that God is unjust in that the thief was lucky that he got a death bed salvation whilst the likes of us have to show physical proof of salvation through our obedience to the law. Such a gospel would have people thinking that it's best to wait for death bed salvation instead of having to maintain perfect obedience to the law for the rest of your life to prove your salvation.

One passage that refutes your doctrine is Jesus' teaching in Matt 7:16-20:

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
If one's fruit (works) is corrupt then they are indeed corrupt, not positionally incorrupt whilst practically corrupt - Jesus never taught such message. John also stated the same thing, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother (1 John 3:7, 10). Verse 10 does not say "...doeth not righteousness is of God positionally", but that is what you teach.

What is the will of God?
John 6:40
"this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day"

And by their fruits you shall know them. What is this fruit, considering God's will above?
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Our fruit speaks of Christ in us.

1John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me

And how do believers do righteousness?
Rom 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Have you noticed what all these scriptures above have in common?
God's will/Righteousness/Fruit/etc is all believing in Jesus.

But you deny this and add works of the law to grace. You cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6



.

Then He said if they do walk after the flesh they won't inherit the kingdom. Gal 5:19-21:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As scripture is spiritually dsicerned (1Cor 2:14) then why do you only see it in physical terms like a natural man would?

He even told them that if they do not continue in the goodness of God they too will be cut off. Rom 11:22- Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Now who does Paul's teaching actually favour? One who is saying we ought to obey God because we have faith in Him or one who is saying we are under grace thus can sin every single day and remain justified?

To "sin" means you have gone back under the law for righteousness. And to do this you then make yourself a transgressor/Sinner.
Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (justification under the law), I make myself a transgressor. (Sinner)

It is your doctrine that encourages spiritual lukewarmness because one will hold that all they have to do is believe there is a God, a mental knowledge of God, but their conduct has absolutely no bearing on their salvation. That is what James was speaking against in his epistle...

James 2:17-19
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jesus told the churches in Revelation that he would spue them out because they were lukewarm, remove their candlestick if they don’t repent and do their first work. Those verses refute unconditional eternal security.

Faith without works is dead, as James 2:17 says.
So what are our works that shows our faith?
Jesus answered this in John 6:29.
Our works are to believe in Jesus.

The lukewarm Rev 3:16 speaks about is those who mix grace with works of the law.
Such need to repent and turn back to their first works (John 6:29 believe in Jesus) or else.

God's grace forgives future sins when they are repented of, yet you say God only forgives past sins because the sins your commit after conversion are not actually sins but just “physical failings”, then I ask why God chastises for physical failings that are not sins and you don’t respond. Your idea of grace is simply that it’s a leeway to sin and we can live in anarchy and still be assured of our salvation.

Jesus said those who hear and do His words are like the wise builder. James said we ought to be doers of God’s word and not hearers only. Why do you disconnect the doing from faith, Sir?

Rom 3:25 tells us that only past sins were dealt with on the cross.
1Pet 4:1 says that we have "ceased from sin".
1John 3:9 says we "cannot sin".
John 8:36 says we're free from sin.
Rom 6:7 says we've "died to sin".
Rom 8:33 says we can't be charged with "any thing" (including sin).
All these scriptures confirm each other.

Yet you still charge believers with sin, in spite of what God says.

Regarding James on being doers of the word, consider it's context.
James 1:21-24
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness (speaking of unbelief), and receive with meekness the implanted word (the gospel/believe in Jesus), which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word (believe in Jesus), and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

The forgetful hearer is one who receives the gospel of Christ but then forgets that in believing in Jesus they are thus righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14), cannot sin (1John 3:9).

The forgetful hearer is like the foolish Galatians who started in the Spirit but then sought to be made perfect by the flesh.
These forgetful hearesr follow doctrines that include obedience to the law as evidence of salvation (that is being made perfect by the flesh).

Remember, the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

 

[Bookends]

David, a man who is said to have a heart after God's own heart:

[h=3]Prayer in Time of Chastening[/h][h=4]A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance.[/h]38 O Lord, do not rebuke me in Your wrath,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For Your arrows pierce me deeply,
And Your hand presses me down.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]There is no soundness in my flesh
Because of Your anger,
Nor any health in my bones
Because of my sin.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For my iniquities have gone over my head;
Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]My wounds are foul and festering
Because of my foolishness.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]I am troubled, I am bowed down greatly;
I go mourning all the day long.
[SUP]7[/SUP]For my loins are full of inflammation,
And there is no soundness in my flesh.
[SUP]8[/SUP]I am feeble and severely broken; (acknowledgment of his sin)I groan because of the turmoil of my heart.


[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lord, all my desire is before You;
And my sighing is not hidden from You. (repentance)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]My heart pants, my strength fails me;
As for the light of my eyes, it also has gone from me.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague,
And my relatives stand afar off.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Those also who seek my life lay snares for me;
Those who seek my hurt speak of destruction,
And plan deception all the day long.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I, like a deaf man, do not hear;
And I am like a mute who does not open his mouth.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus I am like a man who does not hear,
And in whose mouth is no response.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in You, O Lord, I hope;
You will hear, O Lord my God.(trust in the Lord)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I said, “Hear me, lest they rejoice over me,
Lest, when my foot slips, they exalt themselves against me.”


[SUP]17 [/SUP]For I am ready to fall,
And my sorrow is continually before me. (acknowledgment and repentance again)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I will declare my iniquity; " " " " "I will be in anguish over my sin. " " " " "
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But my enemies are vigorous, and they are strong;
And those who hate me wrongfully have multiplied.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Those also who render evil for good,
They are my adversaries, because I follow what is good. (yet K David acknowledges his sin, he claims he still follows good)


[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do not forsake me, O Lord;
O my God, be not far from me!
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation! (trust in the Lord for help and salvation)

King David is also mentioned in the Hall of Fame for the faithful in Hebrews 11.

 

[haz]

David, a man who is said to have a heart after God's own heart:

Prayer in Time of Chastening

A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance.

38 O Lord, do not rebuke me in Your wrath,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For Your arrows pierce me deeply,
And Your hand presses me down.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]There is no soundness in my flesh
Because of Your anger,
Nor any health in my bones
Because of my sin.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For my iniquities have gone over my head;
Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]My wounds are foul and festering
Because of my foolishness.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]I am troubled, I am bowed down greatly;
I go mourning all the day long.
[SUP]7[/SUP]For my loins are full of inflammation,
And there is no soundness in my flesh.
[SUP]8[/SUP]I am feeble and severely broken; (acknowledgment of his sin)I groan because of the turmoil of my heart.


[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lord, all my desire is before You;
And my sighing is not hidden from You. (repentance)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]My heart pants, my strength fails me;
As for the light of my eyes, it also has gone from me.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague,
And my relatives stand afar off.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Those also who seek my life lay snares for me;
Those who seek my hurt speak of destruction,
And plan deception all the day long.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I, like a deaf man, do not hear;
And I am like a mute who does not open his mouth.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus I am like a man who does not hear,
And in whose mouth is no response.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in You, O Lord, I hope;
You will hear, O Lord my God.(trust in the Lord)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I said, “Hear me, lest they rejoice over me,
Lest, when my foot slips, they exalt themselves against me.”


[SUP]17 [/SUP]For I am ready to fall,
And my sorrow is continually before me. (acknowledgment and repentance again)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I will declare my iniquity; " " " " "I will be in anguish over my sin. " " " " "
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But my enemies are vigorous, and they are strong;
And those who hate me wrongfully have multiplied.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Those also who render evil for good,
They are my adversaries, because I follow what is good. (yet K David acknowledges his sin, he claims he still follows good)


[SUP]21 [/SUP]Do not forsake me, O Lord;
O my God, be not far from me!
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation! (trust in the Lord for help and salvation)

King David is also mentioned in the Hall of Fame for the faithful in Hebrews 11.

Hi Bookends.

I liked your post.

Thought I might add that King David was under the law and therefore he could be charged with transgression/sin. But note in the scriptures below how God put away his sin. Also we can see how God disciplined King David in these scriptures too.

2Samuel 12:9-14
You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon.
Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.[SUP]'[/SUP] Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun." So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."

And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die."



Now regarding repentance, when we receive Jesus we have repented and turned to God. Repentance is to have such regret for your previous actions that you do a complete turn around and stop doing them. That means repentance is once only. If we keep repenting over and over for the same offenses than that is not repentance.

Consider Heb 6 on repentance.
Heb 6:1-6
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

As we see here repentance is once only.
And repentance is of dead works of self-righteousness. This was mans rebellion against God seeking to establish their own righteousness and therefore not submitting to the righteousness of God.
So repentance is turning away from our dead works of self-righteousness and turning to God instead. So Christians have repented when we received Christ. After that there is no more repentance, as Heb 6 shows.

Repentance is not referring to our physical failings that some claim we need to constantly repent over.