Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

[Ralph-]

My friend can you show me where a person prayed the sinners pray in the Bible?

‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’-Luke 18:13

The Bible says that if a person is in Chirst it is Christ that will keep them holy, blameless and above repoach before Him.

Yes, IF they continue in him:.

Colossians 1:21-23“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

The proof of that faith is you continuing in the faith for life, you will or can you have times of unbelief? Of course, and since you are not died yet no one not even yourself knows the end of you story, only God know how that will end.

I don't think many once saved always saved people of the Calvinist persuasion realize that even Calvinism itself says you can not know if you are among the elect (who can never be lost) until the end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.

The real and Biblical doctrine of security is as long as you are believing you have the security of Christ in salvation. And you have the assurance of that salvation if you are producing it's fruit.

Here's what John says along the same lines as Paul, about those that have claimed some type of faith or being involved with believers.

I John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

Then he turns right around and tells those who did not leave to continue to abide and not be deceived. So we know John was not trying to make the point that absolutely everyone who leaves was never saved to begin with and those who are saved can't leave.

People can say whatever they want, it is God's Word that is the final authority in the matter, if Christ has reconciled you in His flesh (body) He will keep you.

If they keep believing.

The mark of a true believer is that they are reconciled by Chirst and they will continue in the faith until He takes them home or they never where believers.

The person who is presently believing is indeed presently saved. The admonition of scripture is to keep believing.

 

[Depleted]

Thanks Mel. I do appreciate your responses. It's interesting you bring this up because I have had people who believe in eternal security tell me that God will never let me go, and that I am still His child, just gone astray.

It's a comforting feeling. To think that if I was wrong in my deconversion that somehow I am still covered by the blood of Christ. Believe it or not, I didn't want to stop believing. I didn't want to lose my faith. It's just certain things became cognizant in my life that caused my perspective to change on things like God's goodness, the validity of Scripture, etc., and I struggled for many years to keep my faith, ultimately losing that battle.

As odd as it would be for someone like me to still be considered saved under the bonds of eternal security, it's better than people denying that I ever was what I know in my heart that I was. I just wonder if that viewpoint coincides with scripture. Would God still count me as one of his own even though I no longer believe He exists? Seems unlikely to me. But who knows.

Yeah, you wanted to do it your own way all along, and have yet to figure out that's not the trip signed under.

No, you don't get to think you are the center of the universe and then still get the eternal-vacation plan. When you get to that point in life where you know you can't do it, cry out to the Lord for his mercy and strength.

And, to be clear, you're already at that point where you know you can't do it. You're still thinking you can do it your own way and then judge God on his not-fairness. Be careful. He's ultimately fair. He does judge us by our sins, and he has told us what the punishment is -- separation from him, death, and hell. That is completely fair!

Now what?

 

[Depleted]

God still and will always love you regardless, after all you are one of his (lost) sheep.

I think theres a difference between COMPLETELY turning away from God and doing your own thing vs falling into sin and losing sight of the Shepherd, but still wanting to be with God. Which one are you? Do you still want a relationship with God? Or have you made your mind up and believe that He doesn’t exist? (Rhetorical questions).

Also, one must be careful if you are proclaiming that once upon a time, you believed in God and now you are saying He doesn’t exist? This scripture comes to mind:

Matthew 10:33 English Standard Version (ESV)

33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

His sheep know the shepherd's voice. Nogard doesn't know it (yet.)

 

[LPT]

‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’-Luke 18:13




Yes, IF they continue in him:.





I don't think many once saved always saved people of the Calvinist persuasion realize that even Calvinism itself says you can not know if you are among the elect (who can never be lost) until the end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.

The real and Biblical doctrine of security is as long as you are believing you have the security of Christ in salvation. And you have the assurance of that salvation if you are producing it's fruit.





Then he turns right around and tells those who did not leave to continue to abide and not be deceived. So we know John was not trying to make the point that absolutely everyone who leaves was never saved to begin with and those who are saved can't leave.





If they keep believing.



The person who is presently believing is indeed presently saved. The admonition of scripture is to keep believing.

indeed the Calvinist view is screwed up doctrine from a man who was a murder. You can see pride in those who followed such doctrine. They bash other denominations as being non Christian and can not see their own false Calvinist doctrine.

 

[posthuman]

I'm confused. I'm not trying to bait anybody.

probably it's the way you made a thread titled "do you believe it's possible for X to exist?"
and then inside OP said "i am living proof of X" and
"if you don't believe me your disbelief is deeply offensive to me"

it kinda looks like bait.


((which doesn't mean it's your intention, er, consciously anyhow))

 

[LW97]

No, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

 

[LPT]

His sheep know the shepherd's voice. Nogard doesn't know it (yet.)

neither do you (yet) because to say such things is because you merely don't agree it's that simple you are not spiritual enough to know if someone doesn't know the shepherds voice only the shepherd knows who hears his voice.

 

[posthuman]

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

which is it you think you've done?

do you think God is reality and that you've decided to spit on the knowledge you have of Him?
or do you think it's all a lie and you've just 'woken up' like you realized there's no actual easter bunny?


either way, it's hard to present yourself as having truly been in Christ. if the former, you're saying effectively that you know Him, and hate Him. impossible that you were ever truly made new in Him in that case. if the latter, you're saying that He doesn't exist at all, so it's impossible that you were ever truly redeemed, because nobody is; it's all just fantasy.


so which is it?
my guess is closer to #2. in your mind you think none of it is true, none of it is real: but you're offended by the idea that someone would say, "it was never really real" although that's what you really believe about it, yourself: that Christianity isn't about an actual, living God who actually, supernaturally lives in and redeems people, changing their minds and giving them of His literal, actual Spirit.
you believe instead it's a myth with a set of ethical tenets & self-imposed behavioral patterns that you "genuinely" gave mental assent to and put effort into acting out. that the only actual power in it is your own, personally, as you try to make your body keep a certain ruleset. that you're "ex-christian" status means you're not 'fooled by the myth' anymore, though you probably still think the self-imposed behavior modification is overall a generally good thing ((tho i bet there's a handful you permit yourself to indulge in)).

is that more or less accurate?
& do you see a little bit why it's crucial to understand whether you know Christ is real or not?

 

[Ralph-]

which is it you think you've done?

do you think God is reality and that you've decided to spit on the knowledge you have of Him?
or do you think it's all a lie and you've just 'woken up' like you realized there's no actual easter bunny?


either way, it's hard to present yourself as having truly been in Christ. if the former, you're saying effectively that you know Him, and hate Him. impossible that you were ever truly made new in Him in that case. if the latter, you're saying that He doesn't exist at all, so it's impossible that you were ever truly redeemed, because nobody is; it's all just fantasy.


so which is it?
my guess is closer to #2. in your mind you think none of it is true, none of it is real: but you're offended by the idea that someone would say, "it was never really real" although that's what you really believe about it, yourself: that Christianity isn't about an actual, living God who actually, supernaturally lives in and redeems people, changing their minds and giving them of His literal, actual Spirit.
you believe instead it's a myth with a set of ethical tenets & self-imposed behavioral patterns that you "genuinely" gave mental assent to and put effort into acting out. that the only actual power in it is your own, personally, as you try to make your body keep a certain ruleset. that you're "ex-christian" status means you're not 'fooled by the myth' anymore, though you probably still think the self-imposed behavior modification is overall a generally good thing ((tho i bet there's a handful you permit yourself to indulge in)).

is that more or less accurate?
& do you see a little bit why it's crucial to understand whether you know Christ is real or not?

In the end, the unbeliever--whether they used to believe, or never believed to begin with--loves the things of the world more than than the things of God. That's why they choose to either never believe, or choose to go back to unbelief.

The point being, love of the world always ends up as unbelief in the heart of a person. It's an interesting phenomenon.

 

[LPT]

You don't have to be completely neutral on a topic to have a discussion about it. I'm clearly not neutral as I identify as an ex-Christian, and I imagine you are not neutral either. That's what a discussion is for. Let's bring our opinions to the table. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, simply don't post in this topic. No one's forcing you.

What responses am I looking for out of this? Well, we can start extremely basic if we want. Here are some questions for Christians to respond to if they want.

1. Why is it not possible for a genuine believer to one day no longer believe? (This isn't asking if we can lose our salvation, but simply asking if a genuine believer can stop believing.) Share scripture if you'd like.

2. If someone believes their faith is genuine, as all Christians do, how exactly does it all become ingenuine the second they stop believing? If that person would have died before they stopped believing, would they have been a true Christian then?

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

Your story is parallel to the prodigal son, who you could say is parallel to the non/ex Christian, in that story the prodigal son come to his senses and returns home now let's just say he didn't return what would have been the outcome IMO death.

when you were ten years old and you ask the lord to come into your life, did you feel anything? or would you say you said the words and nothing happened no hair raising event or sudden feeling of something, or did you have a feeling of null when you said those words?

 

[MarcR]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

IMO Absolutely NOT!

 

[BillG]

Your story is parallel to the prodigal son, who you could say is parallel to the non/ex Christian, in that story the prodigal son come to his senses and returns home now let's just say he didn't return what would have been the outcome IMO death.

when you were ten years old and you ask the lord to come into your life, did you feel anything? or would you say you said the words and nothing happened no hair raising event or sudden feeling of something, or did you have a feeling of null when you said those words?

What do feelings have to do with it?

 

[LPT]

What do feelings have to do with it?

everything is in the heart do you feel your heart? when I say feel I don't mean a rock you might be steeping on.

 

[BillG]

everything is in the heart do you feel your heart? when I say feel I don't mean a rock you might be steeping on.

So your not talking about fuzzy wuzzy feelings?

 

[LPT]

So your not talking about fuzzy wuzzy feelings?

what do you think I'm saying?

who created humans to feel?

for what purpose do we have them?

 

[JesusLives]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

Now I have a question for you out of curiosity... What made you change your mind? From when you were a child and made the prayer to the adult you are now not believing?

I know that a lot of my family have been educated out of religion so I was wondering and therefore the reason for my question to you.

 

[BillG]

what do you think I'm saying?

who created humans to feel?

for what purpose do we have them?

Do you live by your feelings only?

 

[LPT]

Do you live by your feelings only?

Well first off start by answer at least one of mine, then I might answer some more of yours, isn't that fair wouldn't you think?

 

[wanderer6059]

what do you think I'm saying?

who created humans to feel?

for what purpose do we have them?

feelings come from our senses

the senses are in the body

the body has the flesh or sin nature in it.

you don't want that telling you something is genuine....

 

[BillG]

Well first off start by answer at least one of mine, then I might answer some more of yours, isn't that fair wouldn't you think?

On the basis we have feelings then yes God created humans with feelings and emotions.

But that does not mean that our feelings are the only basis to live our lives.