Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

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You said, "I struggled mightily to keep my faith, but could not in the end." What was the opposing force that ended it? I know you don't wish to go down this path of discussion, but if we are considering what is really important in this encounter with you, shouldn't we get to the meat of the discussion? Why do you now reject what you once loved?
Why did Demas? Titus? All those believers Paul had converted in Asia?

2 Tim 1:15) This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Why do some peoples' faith get shipwrecked?

Sometimes it takes a lot of work to stand for God, and sometimes people fall away. We have a shrewd and competent adversary.
 
Sorry dude. I call your post absolute baloney, and continue to contend that either you are here in a vain attempt to draw God's children away from Him, or are yourself drawn here by the Lord after walking a prodigal road.

You have yet to answer the passage stated here a hundred times that the fact that you didn't remain believing PROVES that you were never Christian to begin with. That's not OUR take. That's what Scripture says.

Are you doing a research paper? What the heck does an atheist care what a true Christian thinks about a "former" Christian being an atheist. I do think you may in fact be spiritually dead, because if you weren't, you would KNOW that you can't touch a truly born again child of God.

Make us all happy, and say you WANT to come running back to the Fathers arms. Absent that, we're pretty much done here.

I suppose you believe that Demas and Titus were never Christians?

And it's not your call to determine whether someone is spiritually dead or not.
 
It can happen. Saul was spirit filled, and he turned against God and the spirit departed from him.
 
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You said, "I struggled mightily to keep my faith, but could not in the end." What was the opposing force that ended it? I know you don't wish to go down this path of discussion, but if we are considering what is really important in this encounter with you, shouldn't we get to the meat of the discussion? Why do you now reject what you once loved?

It's complicated. It wasn't just one thing. It wasn't just one instance. This was a multi-faceted event that lasted several years. If I try to condense what happened into too short of a summary, it makes it sound petty and trivial. If I were to say everything involved in what happened, I'd have to write a short novel. So I need to find some inbetween place where I can tell you what happened to me in as few words as possible while still getting everything across. I will share my story because you and others have asked, but not tonight, as it's getting late.
 
The ironic is that at one point in my life I was also 100% certain of the fact that I was God's child, and I also could not comprehend how anyone could just not believe anymore.



Some others have mentioned this as well. I guess I need to clarify. My struggle led me to nonbelief in Christianity. I am not dealing with some sort of thing where I still believe God exists but just choose to reject Him. That would be very nonsensical.

Its froward nation of natural man that has no faith in respect to the faith of Christ which alone comes from hearing God. Doubt is not the opposite of faith .Unbelief is as in no faith is.

Deuteronomy 32:20
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
 
Well...this topic got sidetracked a bit. Lots of comments to read through. Lots of different things being said. I wanted to comment on some of it.

There were quite a few people who attacked my claim to having genuine faith solely because I said the sinner's prayer as a child. As if somehow performing that one act invalidated anything that followed. Look, the sinner's prayer is a statement of faith. It's an outward sign of someone ready to surrender to Christ and begin a journey of faith dedicated in service to God. It is not some magical incantation that grants me salvation and now I can just go back to my normal life. I never believed it was. Billy Graham was a huge proponent of the sinner's prayer. Was his faith not genuine simply because he believed in that practice? Look, the true mark of a believer is not from saying some little prayer once long ago. I know this; I always have. Having a heart that is repentant, full of love for the Lord and for others, surrendering to Jesus. These are the marks of a believer. Someone who exhibits a living faith, not just a mental state of mind. And yes, it is not my doing, not without God's abundant grace and His calling on my life to serve him. My salvation was His glory, and His alone. This is what I believed.

Why am I here? Some people have asked that. No, I am not a troll. I am not here to cause trouble or play tricks or deconvert anybody. I honestly just came here to get a Christian's perspective on what you make of ex-Christians. Because your perspective is unique. For the nonChristian, a deconversion is simply someone who stopped believing in some religion. Like someone leaving Islam. But we know, those of us who are/were Christians, that this religion is a little different. It's not just a religion; it's a relationship. So when someone who professes to have been born again loses their faith and no longer believes, what does the Christian make of that?

I've received varied responses.

Many say that it's simply not possible. I think I've addressed that as much as I can. And it depends if you adhere to Calvinist teachings as to how much leeway you can have on this as a Christian. If you are a Calvinist, there is simply no room for someone like me in that theology. So you have no choice but to just dismiss me straightaway. Why even bother hearing me out when you know that there is no way any true believer could leave the faith? That's because as a Calvinist, you believe God chooses who to save and who not save, and we have no say in the matter. There is nothing the unsaved can do to change their situation; they are damned at birth. Likewise, salvation is a mandate to those chosen by God; it is not an invitation. The cold reality about this point of view, if true, is that when I was a young boy, and I told God that I loved Him, and asked Him to forgive me of sin and help me to be like Him...God said no, I want nothing to do with you. And as I lived my young Christian life, and I went to bed at night thanking God for the day and telling Him that I loved Him....God ignored it. He wanted nothing to do with me. Because apparently I'm not one of the elect. That kind of coldheartedness....it's a hard pill to swallow.

As for everyone else who does not adhere to Calvinism but still doesn't believe a true Christian could ever walk away. I just ask why couldn't they. If salvation is in fact an invitation. If God's calling is through the gospel message, reaching out to anyone who hears it with an invitation to come follow Him, and receive God's gift of salvation, given through grace, then does it not follow that one can freely exit what they had freely entered into? You may ask how I could possibly walk away from God after experiencing His presence in my life? Well, it wasn't easy. It was a very hard and difficult process. As I said previously, I struggled mightily to keep my faith, but could not in the end.

Finally, others said I must of had a weak faith...been an immature Christian perhaps. I was a diehard, all-in Christian for most of my Christian life. I prayed, I worshiped, I studied his word. Feed the spirit - I remember my youth pastor saying one day. Feed the fire inside you so you do not grow lukewarm. That is what I did. I had, under any reasonable measurement, an extremely strong faith. And yes, that strong faith was beaten and battered until it became weak. Weak enough to lose altogether. But it was not always weak. And I think that's important to clarify.

Yes it did and probably from me for just merely saying remember the feelings you had when you were young, snow balled into a whole nother topic, and of coarse I got suckered into it, truth be told that is probably why a lot of people leave churches etc. to much knit picking and I've noticed a lot Christians have hard time seeing between the lines and not taking every single word to heart. And that got to prove you wrong attitude.
 
Well...this topic got sidetracked a bit. Lots of comments to read through. Lots of different things being said. I wanted to comment on some of it.

There were quite a few people who attacked my claim to having genuine faith solely because I said the sinner's prayer as a child. As if somehow performing that one act invalidated anything that followed. Look, the sinner's prayer is a statement of faith. It's an outward sign of someone ready to surrender to Christ and begin a journey of faith dedicated in service to God. It is not some magical incantation that grants me salvation and now I can just go back to my normal life. I never believed it was. Billy Graham was a huge proponent of the sinner's prayer. Was his faith not genuine simply because he believed in that practice? Look, the true mark of a believer is not from saying some little prayer once long ago. I know this; I always have. Having a heart that is repentant, full of love for the Lord and for others, surrendering to Jesus. These are the marks of a believer. Someone who exhibits a living faith, not just a mental state of mind. And yes, it is not my doing, not without God's abundant grace and His calling on my life to serve him. My salvation was His glory, and His alone. This is what I believed.

Why am I here? Some people have asked that. No, I am not a troll. I am not here to cause trouble or play tricks or deconvert anybody. I honestly just came here to get a Christian's perspective on what you make of ex-Christians. Because your perspective is unique. For the nonChristian, a deconversion is simply someone who stopped believing in some religion. Like someone leaving Islam. But we know, those of us who are/were Christians, that this religion is a little different. It's not just a religion; it's a relationship. So when someone who professes to have been born again loses their faith and no longer believes, what does the Christian make of that?

I've received varied responses.

Many say that it's simply not possible. I think I've addressed that as much as I can. And it depends if you adhere to Calvinist teachings as to how much leeway you can have on this as a Christian. If you are a Calvinist, there is simply no room for someone like me in that theology. So you have no choice but to just dismiss me straightaway. Why even bother hearing me out when you know that there is no way any true believer could leave the faith? That's because as a Calvinist, you believe God chooses who to save and who not save, and we have no say in the matter. There is nothing the unsaved can do to change their situation; they are damned at birth. Likewise, salvation is a mandate to those chosen by God; it is not an invitation. The cold reality about this point of view, if true, is that when I was a young boy, and I told God that I loved Him, and asked Him to forgive me of sin and help me to be like Him...God said no, I want nothing to do with you. And as I lived my young Christian life, and I went to bed at night thanking God for the day and telling Him that I loved Him....God ignored it. He wanted nothing to do with me. Because apparently I'm not one of the elect. That kind of coldheartedness....it's a hard pill to swallow.

As for everyone else who does not adhere to Calvinism but still doesn't believe a true Christian could ever walk away. I just ask why couldn't they. If salvation is in fact an invitation. If God's calling is through the gospel message, reaching out to anyone who hears it with an invitation to come follow Him, and receive God's gift of salvation, given through grace, then does it not follow that one can freely exit what they had freely entered into? You may ask how I could possibly walk away from God after experiencing His presence in my life? Well, it wasn't easy. It was a very hard and difficult process. As I said previously, I struggled mightily to keep my faith, but could not in the end.

Finally, others said I must of had a weak faith...been an immature Christian perhaps. I was a diehard, all-in Christian for most of my Christian life. I prayed, I worshiped, I studied his word. Feed the spirit - I remember my youth pastor saying one day. Feed the fire inside you so you do not grow lukewarm. That is what I did. I had, under any reasonable measurement, an extremely strong faith. And yes, that strong faith was beaten and battered until it became weak. Weak enough to lose altogether. But it was not always weak. And I think that's important to clarify.
Well you certainly have done your homework I'll give you that but,I don't think you "grasp" what it is to accept Jesus it's fine that you have previously accepted God but you don't seem to comprehend that once you accept Jesus and the Holy spirit there is no "turning back".
To put things more simply,accepting Jesus,his works,and the Holy spirit is a "binding" package deal,I mean sure you can "delay" service as Jonah did but once you make that choice of accepting Jesus to accept the Holy Spirit and Salvation,it may take time but there's no "going back".
People have made some uproar in the past of satan giving out contracts for things and a person losing their soul forever but one big difference,satan you can run from or even break away from through Jesus but God is not so "trivial" God is patient and God gives "exits" from problems satan doesn't,and God "cares for" those who are his" satan doesn't.
Now I understand that you feel down because you feel that God didn't live up to his end but I'd like to ask...
Just what was it you were hoping for?
Were you expecting to get everything you wanted from God when you wanted it?
Did you expect serving him and accepting his son to be easy?
Sincerely I would like to know what, in your own words,did you think serving God would be about and require?
 
This thread really alarms me...Sounds like this guy needs help, but where is it? Someone tells him to remember what it felt like when he first got saved then pages of argument over feelings and whatnot????

Where is the love for others? Is our lights shinning or are we just out to one up each other? Just asking....
 
I suppose you believe that Demas and Titus were never Christians?

And it's not your call to determine whether someone is spiritually dead or not.

Please learn reading comprehension. I said MAY be, but this I don't have to guess. If he isn't born again, and don't have Christ, then he is in FACT spiritually dead as of this moment.
 
Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.



Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).


Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

Hi Nogard, here's my less-than-$0.02 worth :) :

There are a few Scripture that come to mind that could be used to support either position - only out of context can that be done.

I'll admit I've only read the first few responses, so perhaps this has already been addressed: What I haven't seen mentioned, so far, is that the "Very Personal" aspect of being a true believer is missing from your part of the discussion. It is this very personal aspect that (1) keeps others from righteously judging someone else's Christian walk; and (2) guarantees that if the relationship falls apart it is ALWAYS our fault.

In conclusion, your loss of faith in Jesus Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with Him (& I'm not saying you said that, either :) ); and it Truly is your loss, which you would already know if you, indeed, were a true believer.

Thanks!
 
Please learn reading comprehension. I said MAY be, but this I don't have to guess. If he isn't born again, and don't have Christ, then he is in FACT spiritually dead as of this moment.

How would you help him to come home?
 
This thread really alarms me...Sounds like this guy needs help, but where is it? Someone tells him to remember what it felt like when he first got saved then pages of argument over feelings and whatnot????

Where is the love for others? Is our lights shinning or are we just out to one up each other? Just asking....

I almost always agree with this sentiment, and everyone must be given love, however he is not searching for truth. What is the purpose of an atheist, who claims to have been a saved Christian, coming here?

What is he trying to prove? I mean he made up an account, took time from his life, to come here for what end?

Either to convince us there is no God, or to have us convince him he is wrong. It's looking more and more like the former.
 
Who convinced the prodigal son to come home?
true in the end the prod son had to come to his own senses but How do we know what he has read about the bible or who had said things to him about the bible and he has been falsely lead by false teachers in Christinity, it wouldn't be blood on his hand but those who have wrongly taught and someone is astray because of it.
 
I almost always agree with this sentiment, and everyone must be given love, however he is not searching for truth. What is the purpose of an atheist, who claims to have been a saved Christian, coming here?

What is he trying to prove? I mean he made up an account, took time from his life, to come here for what end?

Either to convince us there is no God, or to have us convince him he is wrong. It's looking more and more like the former.
I can't say for sure what his true intent is for being here. Maybe he is under conviction...Maybe is searching for answers and help because he may have been under false teachers before and is now confused and trying to find answers from other Christians.

But like I said I can't really say what his true intent is...It was just alarming to me to read through this thread and see all the arguments that broke out over it.
 
true in the end the prod son had to come to his own senses but How do we know what he has read about the bible or who had said things to him about the bible and he has been falsely lead by false teachers in Christinity, it wouldn't be blood on his hand but those who have wrongly taught and someone is astray because of it.

Fair enough. That is why until we can ascertain his motive for coming here and starting the thread, we will continue to just spin our wheels.
 
Please learn reading comprehension.

Why do most responses on this forum usually include an insult?

I was away from this site for a few months, and that was one of the major reasons why. It seems that many (not all) Christians cannot carry on a discussion without insulting each other.

I said MAY be, but this I don't have to guess. If he isn't born again, and don't have Christ, then he is in FACT spiritually dead as of this moment.
That's true. But he certainly could be born again. Getting born again does not guarantee that a person will not lose his faith.
 
Fair enough. That is why until we can ascertain his motive for coming here and starting the thread, we will continue to just spin our wheels.

We can start by giving him the benefit of the doubt, he may truly be at a cross roads right now looking down both ways. whether we know his motive or not we should treat him like anyone else looking or searching for answers.
 
1 Peter 3:15
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
 
Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

Well, if all you're here for is to get someone to acknowledge that ex-christians exist, you've gotten that by now, so you must want something else.
To those that believe you can lose your salvation you are apostate and going to hell, so you being here must serve no purpose- other than seeking friendship perhaps?
To those of us who believe you can't lose your salvation, you're either backslidden, and are here to be encouraged back into your former strength of faith; or you're not saved at all, and need Jesus. Snce I'm from the latter camp, please feel free to contact me or anyone else who doesn't believe you're an ex-Christian, so we can get you back or in,whichever the case may be-even if you just need a friend for a private talk.