Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

[Ezekiel8]

Frankly after reading this and all responses since my first comment, to me, all this just reinforces the notion that I don't think the Ex-Christian community were really Christians to begin with. Yet I notice also some strange thing with their movement, they're not really quite atheists though too. I mean think about it, the whole premise of this topic is the Ex-Christians, whom are supposedly now atheists, are worried or feel bad as a community that Christians don't think they were real Christians. Lol then there is their funny doctrine of deconversion, which implies they were originally atheists and thus reverted back to atheism. Yet deconversion is not even an actual word, and Ex-Christians by their very own groupings' name and identity are originally Christians, worried that they weren't real Christians before they became Ex-Christians because they aren't really atheists.

Obviously from my biased standpoint if it were me in that predicament I would say you might as well just reconnect to your Christian roots and become a Christian, lol but from my experience that's not exactly the most favorable thing the Ex-Christian community like to hear.

 

[PennEd]

Why do most responses on this forum usually include an insult?

I was away from this site for a few months, and that was one of the major reasons why. It seems that many (not all) Christians cannot carry on a discussion without insulting each other.


That's true. But he certainly could be born again. Getting born again does not guarantee that a person will not lose his faith.

The 'insult" was you putting words in my mouth that I did not say. I told you to reread what I said. Don't you think YOU were the one in error? Your statement suggests you simply want to forget about that you were in error by saying I insulted you. Maybe you are just a tad bit too sensitive.

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I presented the possibility that he is saved and the Lord is drawing him back.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Some others have mentioned this as well. I guess I need to clarify. My struggle led me to nonbelief in Christianity. I am not dealing with some sort of thing where I still believe God exists but just choose to reject Him. That would be very nonsensical.

Interesting. Something I can't relate to because my faith, or belief, has never been in Christianity. My cultural experience growing up was a bit different from yours, though, because I wasn't raised to be a Christian.

 

[PennEd]

Why did Demas? Titus? All those believers Paul had converted in Asia?

2 Tim 1:15) This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Why do some peoples' faith get shipwrecked?

Sometimes it takes a lot of work to stand for God, and sometimes people fall away. We have a shrewd and competent adversary.

You seem to be making an assumption that turning away from Paul equates to losing salvation in Jesus.

Christians, unfortunately, often "turn away" from one another. Sometimes a rift in a Church causes some to leave that Church and find another.

 

[posthuman]

Look, the true mark of a believer is not from saying some little prayer once long ago. I know this; I always have. Having a heart that is repentant, full of love for the Lord and for others, surrendering to Jesus. These are the marks of a believer.

Thats not what the Bible says either.

It's belief: the thing you lack.

I've always thought it pretty strange to hear "surrender my life to Jesus" etc, just like so many common 'churchisms'
It sounds quite pious and religious and genuine, but on inspection - how could anyone 'withold' from the Almighty? Christ is God, all things belong to Him. You can quit struggling, but there's nothing to 'surrender' - it already belongs to Him. It's as if you, a stranger, tell me you're going to give me my car. What? It's not yours to give, and I already own it. You don't even know what kind of car I have, much less which one.

*shrug* like I said earlier though, mist people in the church say things like this without ever taking them to heart. Someone tells us 'the right words to say' and we say them, and internalize then with little scrutiny.

 

[posthuman]

That's true. But he certainly could be born again. Getting born again does not guarantee that a person will not lose his faith.

Shrume! Hey welcome back, long time no see.

I am thinking, if I am really born again, then how in the world is that undone? Born a third time?
Surely nogard has read Romans ((?)) - if he got to chapter 6 it should be clear that he died. So if he thinks he's gone back to that dead man...? Then he never really died with Christ in the first place, or else he's currently very confused - or its all lies, all of it, and we're all as Paul himself said 'the most miserable of men' totally deceiving ourselves, while nogard and his nihilism is the only one who is right, and in which case, there is no such thing as life at all, no such thing as existence, we're all dust suffering from a temporary illusion of personhood. Misery all around in that case.

My guess is he never knew Christ in the first place, so now that he denies Him, he still doesn't know who it is he denies, though he's been puffed up enough by churchianity that he thinks he does.

((still just a guess))

All in all, he's here because he was drawn with hooks in his nose, no matter how invisible they are to himself. My God doesn't fail.

 

[shrume]

The 'insult" was you putting words in my mouth that I did not say. I told you to reread what I said. Don't you think YOU were the one in error? Your statement suggests you simply want to forget about that you were in error by saying I insulted you. Maybe you are just a tad bit too sensitive.

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I presented the possibility that he is saved and the Lord is drawing him back.

Do you remember saying this?

...the fact that you didn't remain believing PROVES that you were never Christian to begin with...

 

[shrume]

Shrume! Hey welcome back, long time no see.

Thanks! Yeah, it's been awhile.

I am thinking, if I am really born again, then how in the world is that undone?

I do not believe the Christian new birth can be undone. I believe that salvation is permanent.

but again: Getting born again does not guarantee that a person will not lose his faith.

Born a third time?
Surely nogard has read Romans ((?)) - if he got to chapter 6 it should be clear that he died. So if he thinks he's gone back to that dead man...? Then he never really died with Christ in the first place, or else he's currently very confused - or its all lies, all of it, and we're all as Paul himself said 'the most miserable of men' totally deceiving ourselves, while nogard and his nihilism is the only one who is right, and in which case, there is no such thing as life at all, no such thing as existence, we're all dust suffering from a temporary illusion of personhood. Misery all around in that case.

My guess is he never knew Christ in the first place, so now that he denies Him, he still doesn't know who it is he denies, though he's been puffed up enough by churchianity that he thinks he does.

((still just a guess))

All in all, he's here because he was drawn with hooks in his nose, no matter how invisible they are to himself. My God doesn't fail.

"Hooks in his nose"? Hmm..

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved? After all, God wants all men to be saved, and He is not willing that any should perish.

I believe that God gave us free will, and that anyone can freely choose to believe the gospel, and become saved. Once a person hears and believes the gospel, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that cannot be undone. But that does not mean the person will always believe. Unfortunately, some people get talked/tricked out of it.

 

[Didymous]

Thanks! Yeah, it's been awhile.


I do not believe the Christian new birth can be undone. I believe that salvation is permanent.

but again: Getting born again does not guarantee that a person will not lose his faith.


"Hooks in his nose"? Hmm..

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe everyone will eventually be saved? After all, God wants all men to be saved, and He is not willing that any should perish.

I believe that God gave us free will, and that anyone can freely choose to believe the gospel, and become saved. Once a person hears and believes the gospel, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that cannot be undone. But that does not mean the person will always believe. Unfortunately, some people get talked/tricked out of it.

Free Will has always been an interesting concept to me. If anyone truly had free will, then they could choose to never sin, and Jesus wouldn't need to do what He did. I'm not saying I don't believe in it, but I believe the only free will I had was to choose to believe in Jesus when the misery got too great. And even then I realize that my free will was empowered by that free gift of faith from Grace.

 

[shrume]

Free Will has always been an interesting concept to me. If anyone truly had free will, then they could choose to never sin, and Jesus wouldn't need to do what He did. I'm not saying I don't believe in it, but I believe the only free will I had was to choose to believe in Jesus when the misery got too great.

Yes, our free will is certainly limited. I do not have the ability to "will" a tree into existence. I think that we have the free will ability to make choices. But because we were "sold under sin" by Adam (Rom 7:14), and we were "servants to sin", not all our choices will be correct (we sin..)

And even then I realize that my free will was empowered by that free gift of faith from Grace.

The gift is salvation, which we obtain be deciding to have faith.

 

[PennEd]

Do you remember saying this?

Yup. I guess this passage hasn't quite been posted enough. So here it is again with a score or so of translations ALL saying what I said.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

New Living Translation
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

English Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Berean Study Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Berean Literal Bible
They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.

New American Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Christian Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

Contemporary English Version
These people came from our own group, yet they were not really part of us. If they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. But they left, which proves they did not belong to our group.

Good News Translation
These people really did not belong to our fellowship, and that is why they left us; if they had belonged to our fellowship, they would have stayed with us. But they left so that it might be clear that none of them really belonged to us.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

International Standard Version
They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

NET Bible
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.

New Heart English Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
They went out from us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained; but they went out from us to disclose that they were not of us.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They left us. However, they were never really part of us. If they had been, they would have stayed with us. But by leaving they made it clear that none of them were part of us.

New American Standard 1977
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

Jubilee Bible 2000
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but this happened that it might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

King James 2000 Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

American King James Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

American Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Douay-Rheims Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.

Darby Bible Translation
They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have surely remained with us, but that they might be made manifest that none are of us.

English Revised Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest how that they all are not of us.

Webster's Bible Translation
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Weymouth New Testament
They have gone forth from our midst, but they did not really belong to us; for had they belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they left us that it might be manifest that professed believers do not all belong to us.

World English Bible
They went out from us, but they didn't belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

Young's Literal Translation
out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but -- that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.

 

[shrume]

Yup. I guess this passage hasn't quite been posted enough. So here it is again with a score or so of translations ALL saying what I said.

King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I trimmed your post for brevity (and no, I am not a KJV Only person..)

So which is it? Do you believe that 1 John 2:19 "PROVES" that nogard was never a Christian, or do you believe:

...the possibility that he is saved and the Lord is drawing him back.

And concerning this:

You seem to be making an assumption that turning away from Paul equates to losing salvation in Jesus.

I am not making that assumption. I believe that salvation for Christians is permanent, and that it cannot be lost.

Christians, unfortunately, often "turn away" from one another. Sometimes a rift in a Church causes some to leave that Church and find another.

Do not forget that Demas turned from Paul "having loved the present world". It does not say that he found another church to attend. He could have, I suppose, but the phrase "having loved the present world" does not suggest that's what he did.

 

[Skylar]

Free Will has always been an interesting concept to me. If anyone truly had free will, then they could choose to never sin, and Jesus wouldn't need to do what He did. I'm not saying I don't believe in it, but I believe the only free will I had was to choose to believe in Jesus when the misery got too great. And even then I realize that my free will was empowered by that free gift of faith from Grace.

We can't avoid sinning we are born like that; and if we didn't have free will then we would be like pr-programmed robots if you know what I mean.

 

[joefizz]

We can't avoid sinning we are born like that; and if we didn't have free will then we would be like pr-programmed robots if you know what I mean.

Yeah no matter who is brought up excluding Jesus free will is evident,for example Moses and Aaron not Glorifying God's name and smiting a stone instead of speaking to it,or another good example is of King David he had many wives and concubines but yet after seeing bath- sheba he wanted to have her and ended up in his desiring her,"killing her husband" by sending him to the front lines of war though he was known as a man after God's own heart.

 

[nogard]

I have a question for those of you who have been persistently vocal in your stance that I was never saved and that I have somehow missed the mark on what it means to be a true Christian.

My question is simple. Imagine I am someone who is skeptical of the validity of your faith. Can you tell me what it means to be a true Christian, and also explain how you are one yourself?

And it's interesting that the conversation has turned to free will. We have free will sin. We have free will to enter into a relationship with Christ. Yet somehow we don't have free will afterwards to ever stop believing? If God gives us the mental freedom to choose to come to Him, why would He eliminate our mental freedom to leave Him (either through unbelief or rejection).

 

[Didymous]

I have a question for those of you who have been persistently vocal in your stance that I was never saved and that I have somehow missed the mark on what it means to be a true Christian.

My question is simple. Imagine I am someone who is skeptical of the validity of your faith. Can you tell me what it means to be a true Christian, and also explain how you are one yourself?

And it's interesting that the conversation has turned to free will. We have free will sin. We have free will to enter into a relationship with Christ. Yet somehow we don't have free will afterwards to ever stop believing? If God gives us the mental freedom to choose to come to Him, why would He eliminate our mental freedom to leave Him (either through unbelief or rejection).

I don't believe you ever explained why you're actually here. If it was to get some to believe you're actually an ex-Christian, then I believe a few did. If you're expecting us all to acknowledge there is actually such a thing as an ex-christian, you'll never get that.

 

[Skylar]

I have a question for those of you who have been persistently vocal in your stance that I was never saved and that I have somehow missed the mark on what it means to be a true Christian.

My question is simple. Imagine I am someone who is skeptical of the validity of your faith. Can you tell me what it means to be a true Christian, and also explain how you are one yourself?

And it's interesting that the conversation has turned to free will. We have free will sin. We have free will to enter into a relationship with Christ. Yet somehow we don't have free will afterwards to ever stop believing? If God gives us the mental freedom to choose to come to Him, why would He eliminate our mental freedom to leave Him (either through unbelief or rejection).

The thing is nogard, after turning to Him and trusting in Him in one of my most desperate times in life, the reality of His love to me has been ultimately something that I am completely unable to doubt. 22years ago, when my first baby was only very young, I had the most amazing thing happen to me, I can only think it is what many people refer to as being baptised in the Holy Spirit. At this time I actually heard the audible voice of God Himself speak a few words to me, it was clearer than any voice I have ever heard in my life. Things have happened to me over the years that have made it utterly impossible for me not to believe, and I have learned that when I drift away from Him or am angry at Him it always comes to light that the problem is my limited understanding as I am a mere human. Of course I cannot prove any of this to you, each of us has His or her own path to a relationship with Him to seek out if willing lol, but I know that when I am real with Him, He is real with me. It's not about my will, whether I believe or not; it was just a tiny bit of belief that He is real that was required initially, and yes I do have to keep trusting Him with everything that comes my way in life which is not my natural inclination. But to choose whether or not I am His is not something within my power, after what has happened to me in my relationship with Him over the last 22 years I have no choice but to testify that He is real, and He loves me and I'm certain He wants to have that relationship with you. I hope you find it, because there is nothing more important than that, and after-all, He died on that cross because of love for you, how can you not give Him a chance?

 

[PennEd]

I have a question for those of you who have been persistently vocal in your stance that I was never saved and that I have somehow missed the mark on what it means to be a true Christian.

My question is simple. Imagine I am someone who is skeptical of the validity of your faith. Can you tell me what it means to be a true Christian, and also explain how you are one yourself?

And it's interesting that the conversation has turned to free will. We have free will sin. We have free will to enter into a relationship with Christ. Yet somehow we don't have free will afterwards to ever stop believing? If God gives us the mental freedom to choose to come to Him, why would He eliminate our mental freedom to leave Him (either through unbelief or rejection).

You seem now to be genuinely interested in understanding what a Christian is. I find this encouraging. If you are here because you are trying to see if Christ is real, and want Him to give you a NEW heart, and make you a NEW creation, then you will find virtually EVERYONE here willing to take whatever time is necessary to show what Jesus has done for us, and can do for you.

Is this the case? Or is your mind made up that there is no God and Jesus is not real?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

https://youtu.be/C2fWO_NIQdA

a legit teaching on this specific topic


i pray all those in need of truth find it swiftly

 

[Rosemaryx]

https://youtu.be/C2fWO_NIQdA

a legit teaching on this specific topic


i pray all those in need of truth find it swiftly

I actually listened to this last night because for the life of me I can not understand how anyone can say they have turned their back on our LORD after tasting how good He is...The more I come to know about our Lord and Savior , the more I fall in love with Him , I just can not ever imagine turning away from Him...

Dear OP...Maybe you were one of those who have fell for self deceiving , yes surely you have deceived yourself ...If you were truly a son of God , you alone could not break the seal God has on us , you would be be saying you are more powerful then God...

God has chosen us before the foundation of the world , He has set us apart , we are His , and Romans 8:39 reminds us this...
[FONT=&quot]38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord...

[/FONT]Maybe you thought you were saved...Maybe God is showing you that you are not and has drawn you into here , if so , do not harden your heart to His calling , and remember , the enemy will have great delight in setting wrong thoughts up in your mind...My heart was truly troubled for you , it would be wonderful if you were coming to Jesus for real then turning your back on Him , I can only pray for you...xox...