Do u believe this ?

[Suze]

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

 

[passion84god]

Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

Yes, as Christians, we have this power or authority. If we proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to someone and they receive it, then we can tell them that their sins are remitted.

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

At the same time, if we proclaim the gospel of Jesus to someone and they reject it, then we can tell them that their sins are retained.​

 

[dkontner]

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

In my humble opinion...

This is for the 11 disciples (apostles). But, we should all take heed. Faith can move mountains and everything we do comes from the Lord. Jesus, being the perfect man, had the perfect faith. These in John however, were made apostles by the Lord. They are different, not special. I'm nearly 100% certain that the Lord would ever grant me the power to forgive sins. I'm not and never will be an apostle. The Lord will let me know just how far above the bottom He wants me to be. I just strive to increase my faith, because that is the ONLY way to please Him. He'll do the rest. Sometimes I worry about going where I'm not sent.

Revelation 21
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Suze]

Yes, as Christians, we have this power or authority. If we proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to someone and they receive it, then we can tell them that their sins are remitted.

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

At the same time, if we proclaim the gospel of Jesus to someone and they reject it, then we can tell them that their sins are retained.​

Yes , we can tell them but , that doesn't seem to me to b about just words when Jesus tells his disciples that , it seems to b a power that he is giving them , to make a judgement and adjudicate accordingly . Maybe I'm reading too much into it

 

[Suze]

In my humble opinion...

This is for the 11 disciples (apostles). But, we should all take heed. Faith can move mountains and everything we do comes from the Lord. Jesus, being the perfect man, had the perfect faith. These in John however, were made apostles by the Lord. They are different, not special. I'm nearly 100% certain that the Lord would ever grant me the power to forgive sins. I'm not and never will be an apostle. The Lord will let me know just how far above the bottom He wants me to be. I just strive to increase my faith, because that is the ONLY way to please Him. He'll do the rest. Sometimes I worry about going where I'm not sent.

Revelation 21
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Thank you for your reply , I appreciate your input . I do get curious about how Christians perceive the working of God's Holy Spirit in them . Do they think they should b able to do everything that the Apostles could ? If yes , why aren't they ? If no , why can't they ? Etc . Thanks for being brave and giving an honest answer .

 

[Suze]

I also noticed , in the Gospel of John , just how quickly Jesus's words get misinterpreted and twisted , Ch 21 V 21-23 . That's a bit scary isn't it ?

 

[ResidentAlien]

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand this but I'm not too worried about it. If the Lord wants to reveal its meaning to me then He'll do it in His own time. However, one thing I am sure of: He wasn't here giving Catholic priests the authority to absolve people of sins.

 

[dkontner]

Thank you for your reply , I appreciate your input . I do get curious about how Christians perceive the working of God's Holy Spirit in them . Do they think they should b able to do everything that the Apostles could ? If yes , why aren't they ? If no , why can't they ? Etc . Thanks for being brave and giving an honest answer .

Faith...

In His kingdom, some will run cities. I'll be happy to be an elevator operator. I'm His clay, what I'm given comes from Him. To be honest, I have no business walking down the streets of His holy city. We are all set in our place that pleases Him.

The Father does the works.

John 14​

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Matthew 17​

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

[passion84god]

Yes , we can tell them but , that doesn't seem to me to b about just words when Jesus tells his disciples that , it seems to b a power that he is giving them , to make a judgement and adjudicate accordingly . Maybe I'm reading too much into it

The power is in the gospel itself, and not in any man.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To remove this power from the gospel itself and to delegate it to men is precisely what the Roman Catholic church has done by insisting that only priests can forgive peoples' sins. That is a dangerous heresy that we should all avoid at all costs.​

 

[tablet123]

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

They were inside a building so it was the 11 disciples.

Which Thomas was not with them testifying it is focused on the 12 disciples.

John 20:23 is probably an assignment to announce God's conditions for forgiveness.

If someone accepts Christ, believers can assure them they are forgiven; if they reject Christ, they remain condemned.

For how can the saints determine that on their own when they do not know the future whether they will turn to God or not.

How can they deny or accept someone's position and it be so when in the future they might accept or reject the truth after accepting it.

It cannot be in the disciples hands but God's hands.

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

In Joh 20:22 the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit to save them, and convert them, but to give them power to continue the ministry.

Which after He was with them for 40 days Jesus told them to wait for the promise of the Father for John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And that is later than when Jesus encountered them the first day in the building and that is when they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

And if it was not the first day but they had to wait then it would not be any of the 40 days for if it could then it could of been on the first day so it is after the 40 days the day of Pentecost when the baptism of the Holy Ghost happened.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Like John the Baptist who received the Holy Ghost from the womb but it was not to save him, or convert him, but to give him power to prepare the way for Jesus.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

At the day of Pentecost is when the disciples were baptized with the Holy Ghost not at the time of the first day of the 40 days but after the 40 days were up when the Spirit was poured upon all flesh.

 

[GWH]

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

All power is God's, and the power Christians have is to reflect God's love, so don't get carried away into left field speculation.
The only thing ye can remit is what God remits, so don't view Him as your Genie. Instead, pray for God's will to be done.
That is what Jesus did.

 

[Suze]

All power is God's, and the power Christians have is to reflect God's love, so don't get carried away into left field speculation.
The only thing ye can remit is what God remits, so don't view Him as your Genie. Instead, pray for God's will to be done.
That is what Jesus did.

I don't think I'm getting ' carried away ' , I happened to b reading those verses and I was just interested in what other people think and I thought it might make for an interesting thread and , I do not view God as ' my genie ' .

 

[timf]

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This parallel verse in Matthew is not translated as accurately as it could have been. For example, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven. This is not a new power, but rather a limitation. one can see an example of this in Acts 15 when James declares restrictions on gentile believers in the kingdom gospel he cites restriction of gentile sojourners from the Old Testament. This sort of binding is not the exercise of indiscriminate decisions, but the application of existing principles.

The eleven disciples may have received the Spirit of Christ as an indwelling connection for their ministry work. Those of Israel at Pentecost onward seem to have the Spirit "fall upon them" for specific tasks. This may be two different things.

 

[rewriter]

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

John is vague, so it could be just the 11 or it could be more. If there were women there then they would have received the same blessing that the men did. But it also appears that John was edited at some time after it was originally written, so one cannot be certain if what we see today was original or if it was added for some purpose.

 

[GWH]

I don't think I'm getting ' carried away ' , I happened to b reading those verses and I was just interested in what other people think and I thought it might make for an interesting thread and , I do not view God as ' my genie ' .

I am confident that you would not get crazy, but my warning was meant for those who seem to prefer speculation to citing Scripture,
specifically those who refer to the power of prayer instead of to the power of the Prayee and those who seem to want to walk by proof/sight/miracle rather than by faith (2Cor. 5:7).

My take regarding John 20:23 is shared on the Teachings of Jesus thread in TOJ #102: Excommunicate fruitless “Christians”. [Matt. 18:17-18] Although saints are not perfect, someone who typically exhibits sinful fruit (Gal. 5:19-21) apparently is not a genuine Believer (TOJ #48 & #148). The reference to binding and loosing {also in Matt. 16:19 & 18:18-20} is problematic, because it can be applied incorrectly, as it was most notably by the Roman popes against Martin Luther and the Protestants.

Jesus does seem to say {also in John 20:23} that, IF Believers represent God’s will on earth rightly, then their disfellowship reflects the ultimate status of the excommunicant. (See TOJ #65, #123 & #152.) However, this is a big “IF”, so the danger of committing the sin of judgmentalism should lead us to adopt the view that disfellowship does not mean Christians cease all interaction with a sinning or carnal person (1Cor. 3:1-3), but rather that they change the nature of the relationship from fellowshipping to witnessing and reproving. Paul once advocated this doctrine (in 1Cor. 5:1-13).

How does this view seem to you?

 

[Suze]

I am confident that you would not get crazy, but my warning was meant for those who seem to prefer speculation to citing Scripture,
specifically those who refer to the power of prayer instead of to the power of the Prayee and those who seem to want to walk by proof/sight/miracle rather than by faith (2Cor. 5:7).

My take regarding John 20:23 is shared on the Teachings of Jesus thread in TOJ #102: Excommunicate fruitless “Christians”. [Matt. 18:17-18] Although saints are not perfect, someone who typically exhibits sinful fruit (Gal. 5:19-21) apparently is not a genuine Believer (TOJ #48 & #148). The reference to binding and loosing {also in Matt. 16:19 & 18:18-20} is problematic, because it can be applied incorrectly, as it was most notably by the Roman popes against Martin Luther and the Protestants.

Jesus does seem to say {also in John 20:23} that, IF Believers represent God’s will on earth rightly, then their disfellowship reflects the ultimate status of the excommunicant. (See TOJ #65, #123 & #152.) However, this is a big “IF”, so the danger of committing the sin of judgmentalism should lead us to adopt the view that disfellowship does not mean Christians cease all interaction with a sinning or carnal person (1Cor. 3:1-3), but rather that they change the nature of the relationship from fellowshipping to witnessing and reproving. Paul once advocated this doctrine (in 1Cor. 5:1-13).

How does this view seem to you?

Fine .

 

[CS1]

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

Thomas and judas were not there. The text says what? it says the disciples were there other Gospels such as Matthew 28

says: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, (Thomas must have been there because judas is dead already) to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

On the Road to Emmaus​

Luke 24 account:

Jesus appears to men on this road after they realized who he was the text says:

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

Now Luke 24 and John 20 are close in their account as Both says Jesus Peace be with you John who was there said Jesus stated He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit.

Each one has a snap shot of what they saw or experienced or were told by other eyewitnesses.

John was there Luke was not. Luke got His account from Peter and others. The disciples were all changed I believe after being in the presence of the Risen Lord. This also is the reason Church history Calls them "A"postles which means one who has seen Him risen over "a"postles which means one who is sent. Both are sent but only the 11 Saw Him face to face.

 

[Aaron56]

There are important points in the passage.

"So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

First, notice that the mission of the Apostles was the same as the mission of Jesus:

"Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

Now that Jesus had "All authority in heaven and on earth" He could send whomever He wanted, BUT, the manner and mission of their sending was predetermined. That is to say: just a Jesus only did what He saw His Father doing, the Apostles, likewise, would only do what they saw the Lord doing. They were not free to do whatever the chose remain obedient to the Lord.

The next portion is crucial:

"He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit only transmits what He receives from Christ.

"He (The Holy Spirit) will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak..."

So when Jesus says this next:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The context is this: "Just like I only did what I saw my Father doing, you should, by the Spirit, only do what you see Me doing. So, when you see that I have forgiven men their sins, you will likewise tell them "Your sins are forgiven".

This is the grace that comes from EVERYONE who walks not by the flesh but buy the Spirit.

As an aside: This delegation of authority is common in the armed forces but is often missed by the "Just me and Jesus" crowd. When a Lieutenant, having received direction from a Major, gives that direction to a Private it is as if the Major spoke with the Private directly.

It is also common in a kingdom: the king may make a decree to a governor of a village. When the governor enacts that decree it is as if the king, himself, took the action. The governor then, aligned with the king, may enforce the curfew with the full support of the king's authority. In this example, the king is the sovereign and the governor is his delegate.

For example: a curfew. A king tells a governor that a curfew is necessary for a certain time. The governor tells his village. Later, a man is caught out after curfew. The man disobeyed the governor but ultimately, because the authority the governor had was given to him by the king, the man disobeyed the king.

 

[CS1]

There are important points in the passage.

"So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

First, notice that the mission of the Apostles was the same as the mission of Jesus:

"Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

Now that Jesus had "All authority in heaven and on earth" He could send whomever He wanted, BUT, the manner and mission of their sending was predetermined. That is to say: just a Jesus only did what He saw His Father doing, the Apostles, likewise, would only do what they saw the Lord doing. They were not free to do whatever the chose remain obedient to the Lord.

The next portion is crucial:

"He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit only transmits what He receives from Christ.

"He (The Holy Spirit) will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak..."

So when Jesus says this next:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The context is this: "Just like I only did what I saw my Father doing, you should, by the Spirit, only do what you see Me doing. So, when you see that I have forgiven men their sins, you will likewise tell them "Your sins are forgiven".

This is the grace that comes from EVERYONE who walks not by the flesh but buy the Spirit.

As an aside: This delegation of authority is common in the armed forces but is often missed by the "Just me and Jesus" crowd. When a Lieutenant, having received direction from a Major, gives that direction to a Private it is as if the Major spoke with the Private directly.

It is also common in a kingdom: the king may make a decree to a governor of a village. When the governor enacts that decree it is as if the king, himself, took the action. The governor then, aligned with the king, may enforce the curfew with the full support of the king's authority. In this example, the king is the sovereign and the governor is his delegate.

For example: a curfew. A king tells a governor that a curfew is necessary for a certain time. The governor tells his village. Later, a man is caught out after curfew. The man disobeyed the governor but ultimately, because the authority the governor had was given to him by the king, the man disobeyed the king.

a couple of things I think need t be said Prior to The death of Jesus He as the God man emptied Himself and took on the Spirit of God for all that he did. The theological term is Kenosis. After the Resurrection Jesus was Gloried and Taking the keys of death, hell and the grave Rev 1:8

This is part od the work of the cross and the Lordship of Christ who is the Supreme Authority Because HE knows the will of the Father and it is not that Jesus must ask permission All HE does is already fully accepted by the Father Because He full know the Father and HIS will so. Jesus is not restraint at all. Nor limited.

we see the text in the Gospels of Jesus saying I do the will of my Father not of my own as a limitation. IT is not. John 6:38

The Holy Spirit work in the believer is to empower them to be a witness of The Lord Jesus, Acts 1:8 Luke 24:49 John 14.

Now Jesus is not a k King like worldly kings , nor a Lord like worldly lords.
All will bow and confess. In Revelation chapter 2 and three Jesus is speaking He alone is laying down the law. why? Because the Father has placed in HIS hands.

 

[Suze]

Thanks to everyone who answered my question , I appreciate u all and enjoyed reading your answers .