Resurrestion, the verse in Matthew, has got nothing to do with gender roles whatsoever.
GB
Phil
GB
Phil
Do you support female pastors?
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then you are saying the bible is not the truth.? and of course if Paul is not telling the truth, then neither was moses.
GB
Phil
It has to do with justice. I believe it is unjust to force a woman to submit to her husband or prohibit her from being a pastor.
Yes but your basis for this is that the bible is not truth.. or that Paul was not isnpired by the Holy Spirit? this really is more of an important isssue.
If you have a faulty view of Scripture, then obviously what you believe will be faulty. infact I would would that it is an insult to the Holy Spirit to say what Paul said was not truthful.
GB
Phil
I believe the Bible is what it is. I would never think of doubting anything Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, since he is our Lord. However, I think it makes sense to take what Paul says with a grain of salt, like I take what my pastor says with a grain of salt. I respect my pastor but I don’t automatically believe everything he says. Paul was a great missionary, but I think it’s possible he misspoke occasionally.
Genesis 3: 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
Resurrection33 says one thing, God says another. Whom shall we believe?
Ephesians 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior.
Resurrection33 says one thing, Paul says another. Whom shall we believe?
1 Corinthians 11: 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-ais the head of his wife, http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-band God is the head of Christ.
Once again, resurrection33 says one thing, Paul says another. Whom shall we believe?
A family is not a democracy. Someone must have the final say, else there is chaos. Our God is a god of order. This does not mean that the husband is a dictator.
1 Peter 3: 7 Husbands, in the same way, show consideration for your wives in your life together, paying honor to the woman as the weaker sex, http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-asince they too are also heirs of the gracious gift of life—so that nothing may hinder your prayers.
what do you think of 2 Timothy 3:16, do you think Paul just made that up to give himself authority?
and secondly, do you believe in the Trinity?
GB
Phil
In Genesis, God was prophesying that husbands would rule over women. He wasn’t ordering them to do so, I don’t think. In fact, I don’t think he wanted them to, but he knew they would, anyway.
As for Paul’s remarks, I think it was probably wrong of Paul to demand that women submit to their husbands.
resurrection33, should we take what God says with a grain of salt also?
If you make a concerted study of Paul's writings, you find that he makes it plain whenever he is speaking on his own behalf, and not for the Lord. He will say for example, "To the rest I say this, I, not the Lord) 1 Cor. 7:12. Paul's writings are inspired, and not to be taken with a grain of salt.
If you make a concerted study of Paul's writings, you find that he makes it plain whenever he is speaking on his own behalf, and not for the Lord. He will say for example, "To the rest I say this, I, not the Lord) 1 Cor. 7:12. Paul's writings are inspired, and not to be taken with a grain of salt.
I find it hard to belive that you say in one breath your a Christian and then in the other say you insult the Holy Spirit by denying His work in Scripture resurrection?
GB
Phil
GB
Phil
At this point, I put an end to my discussion with you. If you, because of the hardness of your heart, refuse to believe the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Apostle Paul, then nothing that I can say, will change your mind.
I think all of Paul’s writings can be taken with a grain of salt. He was a human like you and me.
I think we should believe everything Jesus tells us in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus is the Lord.
S
SantoSubito
Guest
So the whole Bible must be taken with a grain of salt? With the exception of the Ten Commandments all of the Bible was written by men.
Now following your logic how can we know that the human authors of the Gospels were telling the truth? However, i must thank you for revealing for me your thoughts towards Scripture. From the looks of it Scripture to you is only truth when it agrees with your views, and when it doesn't agree with your views it becomes a "mistake", "error", or "he misspoke". Also i would ask you to look into your denominations history. They too prohibited female pastors until sometime in the 70s. Which if you remember right is when feminism was on the rise.
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels(1 Corinthians 11:1-10(1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels(1 Corinthians 11:1-10).
The truth is God has to have an authority structure on earth so things will run smoothly.
The military,school system,government,and businesses,all have authority structures so things are done orderly without chaos.
God has an authority structure on earth so things will run decently and orderly.
God is the head of Christ,Christ is the head of man,and woman is the head of angels if she has uncut hair.
That is because angels are the last in the authority chain,and the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels,for they will have a glorified body like God's glorified body and rule on earth with Jesus which the angels will never have that privilege.
The Bible says the angels are ministering spirits to the saints,and the angels desire to look into the salvation of the saints.
The truth of the Bible is that men are supposed to have short hair for they are in the image of God,and women are to have uncut hair.
If a women cuts her hair it is the same as if she is shaven,and tries to get in the position of a man.
The Bible says that even nature testifies that it is a shame for men to have long hair.
Men are to have short hair and women are to have uncut hair according to the Bible.
A man is to have short hair for they are in the image of God.
Jesus came in the image of God,so Jesus would have short hair.
They portray Jesus with long hair but that is not true for Jesus would have short hair because He came in the image of God.
Jesus is from Nazareth but He is not a Nazarene like in the Old Testament where Samson had long hair,which passed away in the New Testament.
Samson could have the long hair in the Old Testament because he was not in the image of God not having the Spirit as we do today.
All men that are saints in the New Testament will have to have short hair for they are in the image of God.
Jesus had short hair.
If women cut their hair they lose their authority above the angels.
In heaven there is no distinction between men and women for they are the same,and man and woman are equal in the Lord.
The only thing that separates a men and woman is the flesh,the spirit and soul are the same.
The men lead the congregation of the Church for God wants things to run decently and smoothly without the fighting over who is in charge,but a woman is a help mate and can lead Bible studies and preach the Gospel of Christ and work around the Church.
Matt
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels(1 Corinthians 11:1-10(1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels(1 Corinthians 11:1-10).
The truth is God has to have an authority structure on earth so things will run smoothly.
The military,school system,government,and businesses,all have authority structures so things are done orderly without chaos.
God has an authority structure on earth so things will run decently and orderly.
God is the head of Christ,Christ is the head of man,and woman is the head of angels if she has uncut hair.
That is because angels are the last in the authority chain,and the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels,for they will have a glorified body like God's glorified body and rule on earth with Jesus which the angels will never have that privilege.
The Bible says the angels are ministering spirits to the saints,and the angels desire to look into the salvation of the saints.
The truth of the Bible is that men are supposed to have short hair for they are in the image of God,and women are to have uncut hair.
If a women cuts her hair it is the same as if she is shaven,and tries to get in the position of a man.
The Bible says that even nature testifies that it is a shame for men to have long hair.
Men are to have short hair and women are to have uncut hair according to the Bible.
A man is to have short hair for they are in the image of God.
Jesus came in the image of God,so Jesus would have short hair.
They portray Jesus with long hair but that is not true for Jesus would have short hair because He came in the image of God.
Jesus is from Nazareth but He is not a Nazarene like in the Old Testament where Samson had long hair,which passed away in the New Testament.
Samson could have the long hair in the Old Testament because he was not in the image of God not having the Spirit as we do today.
All men that are saints in the New Testament will have to have short hair for they are in the image of God.
Jesus had short hair.
If women cut their hair they lose their authority above the angels.
In heaven there is no distinction between men and women for they are the same,and man and woman are equal in the Lord.
The only thing that separates a men and woman is the flesh,the spirit and soul are the same.
The men lead the congregation of the Church for God wants things to run decently and smoothly without the fighting over who is in charge,but a woman is a help mate and can lead Bible studies and preach the Gospel of Christ and work around the Church.
Matt
No. For openers, the teachings of Jesus, found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are indisputable, I believe, because these are the teachings of Jesus, our Lord.
I think God accepts the responsibility of making sure Jesus was quoted accurately.
No, according to the United Methodist webpage I just brought up, women were granted full clergy rights in 1956. Here is the page: Women Clergy
Resurrection, I think you're viewing the cultural norms society has established in the last 60 years as something which is unchangeable and then moulding your interpretation of the bible to fit those norms.
Do you think Jesus would be looking upon the modern era and saying wow, they finally got the gender roles rght within the church, and look at all the good it has done for them.
Do you think Jesus would be looking upon the modern era and saying wow, they finally got the gender roles rght within the church, and look at all the good it has done for them.
I
Israel
Guest
If this is to be taken literal, then what of the women who don't have a man or husband in their lives.
Numbers 6:1-5
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
4All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. 5All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.
All men are created in the image of God. It is the Spirit which seperates the natural man (the image of God) from the spiritual man (the image and likeness or confirmity towards the image of His Son) being the difference. We who are spiritual are not of the world. The statement you made, if you really focus on it, is the truth of the whole matter! "The only thing that seperates a man from a women is the flesh!" The Bible says that there is no respect of persons with God. So how can this be if God does indeed do when it comes to men and women? Now if the flesh passes away as indeed no flesh inherits the kingdom of God, why hold on to these beliefs? If what is to be taken by paul to be literal, then what of women who unfortunately can't grow hair? Single women? Are the Saints only men? What Paul does is set forth an example by which we can understand physically, to abide by spiritually.
1 Peter 3:1-4
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
To be taken literally, is the woman now called a man? No. This is that spiritual woman. Mankind's help meet in spreading the word of God!
Revelation 17:1-6
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Are the kings of the earth fornicating with this woman literally? No. This is the woman that man or mankind, rather left the wife for to fornicate with!
Malachi 2
And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
10Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
11Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
12The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
This is the wife that is to remain in submission to her husband. The one we've dealt treacherously with!
I believe in justice. I do not think it is just to force women to submit to their husbands, or prohibit women from speaking in church. I think the Lord probably feels the same way.