I would say to anyone who really wants to see if their truth stands try to prove it wrong. Metal is best tested to see if it can withstand the trials of time and against other blades by pitting it against iron. The problem is people want to prove their views as correct not try to prove it wrong you have to have a learning spirit and a teachable heart otherwise even if the truth is placed right in front of you then you will remain blind to it.
Do you want to know the truth?
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I asked if you were confused since you seemed to think I might be
I don't care if you left all religions and denoms
you are still just like everyone else around here...not special and above it all in other words
besides, the Bibles tells us not to forsake getting together with others of like faith
you just keep pressing then, but you are pressing on my last nerve LOL! since you avoid answering questions directly
I just don't trust it when a person does that sort of thing
thank you. over 'n out
I think there are several rules we need to apply when we read scripture to understand what God is telling us in the verses we read,
First, we need to keep all the attributes of God in mind. God is of love, God is kind and wants the best for all humans, yet he ordered all the Canaanites killed. We need to ask ourselves why this is loving and kind to understand it,
Next we must know God never contradicts God. God said the old covenant is no more, and God gave the old covenant. God would not contradict himself, saying he changed his mind, yet here is a change,. We need to study scripture to find out the truth of the old and new covenants.
The third truth we need to keep in mind as we read is that God never tells us a truth only once, there must be other scriptures saying the same thing or we are in danger of misunderstanding the lone verse.
Next we need a cleat understanding of the difference between the OT where God instructs using fleshly examples of the spiritual, and in the NT those spiritual truths are the same but told directly to our hearts. To get a handle on this we need to study the examples God gave when he said "you have been told" and "but I tell you". It starts at Matthew 5:21. This explains the new covenant. As we read the OT we need to read it with knowing the spiritual truths the physical examples is telling us--we need to read it with the open eyes Christ has given us.
First, we need to keep all the attributes of God in mind. God is of love, God is kind and wants the best for all humans, yet he ordered all the Canaanites killed. We need to ask ourselves why this is loving and kind to understand it,
Next we must know God never contradicts God. God said the old covenant is no more, and God gave the old covenant. God would not contradict himself, saying he changed his mind, yet here is a change,. We need to study scripture to find out the truth of the old and new covenants.
The third truth we need to keep in mind as we read is that God never tells us a truth only once, there must be other scriptures saying the same thing or we are in danger of misunderstanding the lone verse.
Next we need a cleat understanding of the difference between the OT where God instructs using fleshly examples of the spiritual, and in the NT those spiritual truths are the same but told directly to our hearts. To get a handle on this we need to study the examples God gave when he said "you have been told" and "but I tell you". It starts at Matthew 5:21. This explains the new covenant. As we read the OT we need to read it with knowing the spiritual truths the physical examples is telling us--we need to read it with the open eyes Christ has given us.
@SophieT ,
Now I have a question for you. You asked that I explain what is meant by "baptism is the mechanism for remission of sins". And I did that by posting the verses clearly stating that baptism is for remission of sins . I even went so far as to explain why that was such a BIG deal. And I did it briefly (which you know can be difficult for me.). And I didn't shy away from it, nor suggest you wouldn't understand.
As far as I'm concerned, you were given all that you asked.
Why did you not express gratitude...or post verses clearly stating that what I said was wrong (rather than just contrary to your beliefs)?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Now I have a question for you. You asked that I explain what is meant by "baptism is the mechanism for remission of sins". And I did that by posting the verses clearly stating that baptism is for remission of sins . I even went so far as to explain why that was such a BIG deal. And I did it briefly (which you know can be difficult for me.). And I didn't shy away from it, nor suggest you wouldn't understand.
As far as I'm concerned, you were given all that you asked.
Why did you not express gratitude...or post verses clearly stating that what I said was wrong (rather than just contrary to your beliefs)?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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What I would like to ask is what you mean by "the fullness of salvation."
For example, the thief on the cross didn't get much, in the way of "salvation" but I believe he is in heaven now.
I think being born again, the spirit man regenerated, is enough to get someone from earth to heaven. However, if they become a mature believer, and if they receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they will much more fun on earth before they arrive in heaven. Am I close to what you are meaning?
For example, the thief on the cross didn't get much, in the way of "salvation" but I believe he is in heaven now.
I think being born again, the spirit man regenerated, is enough to get someone from earth to heaven. However, if they become a mature believer, and if they receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they will much more fun on earth before they arrive in heaven. Am I close to what you are meaning?
Basically what I mean is along the lines of "Do you have all that is necessary?"
I agree that the thief went to heaven (without even hearing the New Testament gospel before he died).
And you're not far from what I was getting at with your mention of being baptized in the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost, because that truly is available. (BTW, there is no difference in the original wording. One place the word was translated "Spirit" and another place the same word was translated "Ghost". I often use "Ghost" partly out of habit.)
The question that should be explored (IMO) is this: "Is there a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit?"
It seems to me that you believe (have a filter) that there is a difference between the two and that they happen (or at least can happen) at separate times.
On the other hand, I believe (have a filter) that they are one in the same, but that there is a difference between believing and receiving-the-Holy-Spirit and that those happen (or at least can happen) at separate times.
If I was correct in identifying your "filter" (as I call them), would you be willing to share why you believe they are different and do (or at least can) happen at different times? Thanks.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I agree that the thief went to heaven (without even hearing the New Testament gospel before he died).
And you're not far from what I was getting at with your mention of being baptized in the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost, because that truly is available. (BTW, there is no difference in the original wording. One place the word was translated "Spirit" and another place the same word was translated "Ghost". I often use "Ghost" partly out of habit.)
The question that should be explored (IMO) is this: "Is there a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit?"
It seems to me that you believe (have a filter) that there is a difference between the two and that they happen (or at least can happen) at separate times.
On the other hand, I believe (have a filter) that they are one in the same, but that there is a difference between believing and receiving-the-Holy-Spirit and that those happen (or at least can happen) at separate times.
If I was correct in identifying your "filter" (as I call them), would you be willing to share why you believe they are different and do (or at least can) happen at different times? Thanks.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
The Bible does not say "baptized IN". The Bible says "baptized WITH". And there is a difference. To be baptized with the Holy Ghost is the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. So here is what you need to note:
1. John the Baptist said: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he [Christ] that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mt 3:18)
2. John was referring back to Ezekiel 36:27: And I [GOD] will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
3. The gift of the Holy Spirit was firstly given to the apostles after the resurrection of Christ: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (John 20:21,22) This was God putting His Holy Spirit into the apostles.
4. The gift of the Holy Spirit was then poured out upon "all flesh" (all those who repented and believed the Gospel) on the day of Pentecost: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams... Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2: 17,38)
5. As we note in Acts 10: 44,45, the baptism WITH the Holy Ghost was a result of believing the Gospel. Water baptism came later. Which means that your Gospel is FALSE.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You have been given all this many times, but you continue to promote a false gospel and mislead others.
1. John the Baptist said: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he [Christ] that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mt 3:18)
2. John was referring back to Ezekiel 36:27: And I [GOD] will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
3. The gift of the Holy Spirit was firstly given to the apostles after the resurrection of Christ: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (John 20:21,22) This was God putting His Holy Spirit into the apostles.
4. The gift of the Holy Spirit was then poured out upon "all flesh" (all those who repented and believed the Gospel) on the day of Pentecost: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams... Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2: 17,38)
5. As we note in Acts 10: 44,45, the baptism WITH the Holy Ghost was a result of believing the Gospel. Water baptism came later. Which means that your Gospel is FALSE.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You have been given all this many times, but you continue to promote a false gospel and mislead others.
I stand corrected that it is baptized WITH the Holy Ghost rather than IN. An honest "Thanks" for pointing that out.
I don't have a problem with the first two numbered points, but if you consider the following statement to be true (which I DO):
Then your assumption at the end of Point #3 ought to be questioned. Here's Point #3:
In order for that statement to be true, you will have to explain the difference between your words of "putting his Holy Spirit into the apostles" and the apostles being "baptized with the Holy Ghost". Because Jesus clearly states in Acts chapter 1 to the apostles that THEY (the apostles) shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:2-5 KJV
"Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: [3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: [4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. [5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
Jesus didn't say that "the other people" should be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. He said it to the apostles about the apostles. And as you pointed out in Acts 2:38,39 the promise is the same unto ALL that the Lord our God shall call. They ALL had to wait until it was poured out on the day of Pentecost.
In John 20:22 Jesus gave them a commandment. In Acts 1 we see another version of that same commandment. In Acts 2 we see the fulfilling of the commandment as they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (and of course began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance).
Basically... He that hath ears, let him hear.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I don't have a problem with the first two numbered points, but if you consider the following statement to be true (which I DO):
Then your assumption at the end of Point #3 ought to be questioned. Here's Point #3:
In order for that statement to be true, you will have to explain the difference between your words of "putting his Holy Spirit into the apostles" and the apostles being "baptized with the Holy Ghost". Because Jesus clearly states in Acts chapter 1 to the apostles that THEY (the apostles) shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:2-5 KJV
"Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: [3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: [4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. [5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
Jesus didn't say that "the other people" should be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. He said it to the apostles about the apostles. And as you pointed out in Acts 2:38,39 the promise is the same unto ALL that the Lord our God shall call. They ALL had to wait until it was poured out on the day of Pentecost.
In John 20:22 Jesus gave them a commandment. In Acts 1 we see another version of that same commandment. In Acts 2 we see the fulfilling of the commandment as they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (and of course began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance).
Basically... He that hath ears, let him hear.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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The test of whether or not someone has the Holy Ghost would be in the following.
Rom 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1Co 8:1, Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2, And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 13:1, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2, And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3, And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4, Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6, Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7, Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Rom 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
1Co 8:1, Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2, And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1Co 13:1, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2, And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3, And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4, Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6, Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7, Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Nehemiah6,
Would you be willing to have a conversation in email rather than in open forum? I have a question to ask regarding your stance on this particular scripture, and a complimentary thing to say about you in general. My hope was to discuss those two things in a private message, but it said your privacy settings do not allow for that option.
Yes, I am willing to discuss both in open forum if restricted to that option, But having an audience is not likely to benefit the interaction. Thanks for your consideration.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Would you be willing to have a conversation in email rather than in open forum? I have a question to ask regarding your stance on this particular scripture, and a complimentary thing to say about you in general. My hope was to discuss those two things in a private message, but it said your privacy settings do not allow for that option.
Yes, I am willing to discuss both in open forum if restricted to that option, But having an audience is not likely to benefit the interaction. Thanks for your consideration.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I won't argue against what you posted. But I will point you back to the original question. If you claim that to be the filter we should be using for THIS task, Are you able to use it to discern who in your church DOES have the Holy Ghost, and who does NOT?
I propose that a filter that cannot be used to answer the question is not the right filter to apply to the task.
Acts 8:12-17 speaks of people who "believed"(<--that's a quote, not a mockery), and also "received the word of God" to the point that they were then "baptized in the name of Jesus" ... and yet, it was clear to the narrator, and to Phillip and/or to whoever sent word to the apostles in Jerusalem, and to the apostles (including Peter and John) that those same believers had NOT YET received the Holy Ghost!
They clearly had a filter that was able to quickly determine whether or not a person has received the Holy Spirit. And their filter also allowed them to discern exactly when they DID receive the Holy Ghost. (see verse 17)
That's something to which most in the BDF would claim "That's impossible!" ... And they'd say it for two reasons... 1) They don't believe that it's possible for a believer to NOT have the Holy Ghost... and 2) They themselves have no idea how to ACTUALLY know if someone has the Holy Ghost.
I'll stop there because it would be easy for a person to get offended at what is written, and I'd like to add some relief. We ALL start out not knowing. Not knowing that the Holy Ghost exists. Not knowing how to get it. Not knowing a lot of things. Not even knowing that Jesus exists. It's not WRONG to admit that we just don't know. it's just wrong to PRETEND that we DO know when we don't. (look up the word "Pretense")
The question in the OP is useful to get us to HONESTLY acknowledge our own weaknesses. It's geared to make it clear "WOW, I really don't know as much as I thought I did! I really need God to teach me." It's not geared to say "HaHa, I have something you can't".
Love in Jesus to all who read this,
-Kelby
Acts 8:12-17 KJV
I propose that a filter that cannot be used to answer the question is not the right filter to apply to the task.
Acts 8:12-17 speaks of people who "believed"(<--that's a quote, not a mockery), and also "received the word of God" to the point that they were then "baptized in the name of Jesus" ... and yet, it was clear to the narrator, and to Phillip and/or to whoever sent word to the apostles in Jerusalem, and to the apostles (including Peter and John) that those same believers had NOT YET received the Holy Ghost!
They clearly had a filter that was able to quickly determine whether or not a person has received the Holy Spirit. And their filter also allowed them to discern exactly when they DID receive the Holy Ghost. (see verse 17)
That's something to which most in the BDF would claim "That's impossible!" ... And they'd say it for two reasons... 1) They don't believe that it's possible for a believer to NOT have the Holy Ghost... and 2) They themselves have no idea how to ACTUALLY know if someone has the Holy Ghost.
I'll stop there because it would be easy for a person to get offended at what is written, and I'd like to add some relief. We ALL start out not knowing. Not knowing that the Holy Ghost exists. Not knowing how to get it. Not knowing a lot of things. Not even knowing that Jesus exists. It's not WRONG to admit that we just don't know. it's just wrong to PRETEND that we DO know when we don't. (look up the word "Pretense")
The question in the OP is useful to get us to HONESTLY acknowledge our own weaknesses. It's geared to make it clear "WOW, I really don't know as much as I thought I did! I really need God to teach me." It's not geared to say "HaHa, I have something you can't".
Love in Jesus to all who read this,
-Kelby
Acts 8:12-17 KJV
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. [14] Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: [15] Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
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I do believe that when someone loves someone else with the love of the Lord that it is normally very visible.
Although, there is also the situation where they may be not letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing in the giving of alms. In such a situation, the love would be felt by the recipient but it would not be known who was actually exhibiting the love. Because they are doing the work of the Lord secretly in order that the Lord might get all the glory.
Although, there is also the situation where they may be not letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing in the giving of alms. In such a situation, the love would be felt by the recipient but it would not be known who was actually exhibiting the love. Because they are doing the work of the Lord secretly in order that the Lord might get all the glory.