Doctrinal Thoughts

[TannarDarr]

I have even herd it get so bad that some Christians believe all Catholics will go to hell, that's what you call pure hate,

its sad because they all claim to worship the one true god which is the most important thing here, but they fall out over the little stuff, or they paint everyone with

It's called Bigotry. The conservative Christian sects (primarily but not solely) hold several bigotries. The word bigotry has a meaning. It is a word to describe an action or behavior. I am not using it as some sort of "you mean ole dummy" cut down.

Another good example is gay marriage. It's funny that the Christian Conservative church turns their back on the bible to make some of the hate filled and angst ridden arguments they make to try to stop their relationships....

I'm sure we all have something we are bigoted about. And I'll concede there are many reasons for bigotry. As you said, hate is one, but ignorance is another, and culture is another, and some of those are just naivete. But, a lot of the time it's just mean old jerks. I know more of the last than I know of the others, but I know all those types of bigots in my real life. Reverse bigotry as well.

It's no excuse for the Church to hold bigotry though. And not only does it hold it, but it goes WAYYYYY out of the way to justify it.

 

[crossnote]

Eph 4 says that's the purview of the leaders of the Church, not as us silly reformers do and when we disagree go make ANOTHER denomination..... What did Paul say about things that cause factions and dissensions???? (it's not spirit led is a hint...)

Paul never set out to write doctrine, as we know the word to represent today... He explained Christ, he didn't say this is what you are to believe or you can't be here. CAVEAT I'm speaking of his comments about and to those in the Church. Since that's where doctrinal importance lies, within the church. If you don't belong in the church you don't care what their doctrines are, until they are attacking you and burning you at the stake.

He had a perfect opportunity in the letters to the Corinthians, and yet, he left it open to them.

Paul never wrote about the Trinity.
He never wrote about sola scriptura, in fact he says things that disprove sola scriptura.
Those are your "doctrine" type chats that I thought we were discussing, and they are not in the Bible but deduced by man later from the Bible and became debate topics, not something that promotes growth in the faith.

"Notice what you have been writing?...YOUR doctrine."<<<<<< you, appropriately snide.

I haven't touched doctrine. Doctrine would be creating something you are to believe that isn't found in scripture but is deduced from scripture.

What I've been doing is hermeneutics and exegetics on what the Book actually says.

You try to attack the message and messenger, not the interpretation of the Bible. I'm assuming LACKING a refutation to how I explained the scriptural verses that was all you had left. But it's cheap, and I think you are above that.

I may have, but I don't think I did present any "position" I wasn't showing that scripture forced my belief on it. Example, the whole Eph example... I've paraphrased it, referenced, explained it, and showed how I use it to determine the direction of my faith on that topic. your response? "you are writing doctrine. blahhhh blahhhh neeener neeener".

doc·trine
ˈdäktrin/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the doctrine of predestination"[/COLOR]

exegetics
[COLOR=#878787 !important]Web definitions[/COLOR]

• Exegesis (from the Greek from 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text. ...

When you can attack my exegetics, rather than me as a person, OR attempt to discredit me with your silly "your doctrine" comments, I'm sure we can have an edifying experience for both you, me and also the rest of the lurkers who read our silliness.

You're totally confusing. You preach much doctrine but speak against it.
You were the first to attack in post#6 but then act like I am the attacker.
Why not practice what you preached in post #6 and go do good deeds instead of sitting here trying to stir an argument?

 

[Quickfire]

It's called Bigotry. The conservative Christian sects (primarily but not solely) hold several bigotries. The word bigotry has a meaning. It is a word to describe an action or behavior. I am not using it as some sort of "you mean ole dummy" cut down.

Another good example is gay marriage. It's funny that the Christian Conservative church turns their back on the bible to make some of the hate filled and angst ridden arguments they make to try to stop their relationships....

I'm sure we all have something we are bigoted about. And I'll concede there are many reasons for bigotry. As you said, hate is one, but ignorance is another, and culture is another, and some of those are just naivete. But, a lot of the time it's just mean old jerks. I know more of the last than I know of the others, but I know all those types of bigots in my real life. Reverse bigotry as well.

It's no excuse for the Church to hold bigotry though. And not only does it hold it, but it goes WAYYYYY out of the way to justify it.

i understand bro but if i was to choose a denomination i would choose s anglican catholic as far as im aware they do not except gay marriage,, but the reason for that is my roots, anyways i was christend church of england which many see as protestant but in actual fact its cathlolic, and many people are un aware of that fact,

but as it stands at the moment i see my self as the church and i would still see my self as that if i went to a church that let gay people in g , as god does want all is children to be saved, gay people do have a right to go to church to , but i would not go to a church that allowed gay marriage, i hope they can be saved too, who knows (please dont get me caught up in this affliction lol)

nope defo a no no and i see your point on that one as being a bad doctrine, im a follower i follow my beliefs and i dont have to get involved n bad doctrines , such as gay marriage, that my choice, but now seeing as i have read it, and no thanks to you lol, i have to , for any one who is gay you have stay on the right path, not the bent one,

but once again he who see,s no evil fears no evils , i could choose to go around the internet looking for bad doctrines or get involved n them but i dont have that,s my choice.

no more afflictions for me, woopeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[TannarDarr]

You're totally confusing. You preach much doctrine but speak against it.
You were the first to attack in post#6 but then act like I am the attacker.
Why not practice what you preached in post #6 and go do good deeds instead of sitting here trying to stir an argument?

You can keep trying to discredit me with the doctrine word. I'll just roll my eyes more and more until I look like.....



I am asking you to engage the hermeneutics and exegetics of the verses.

you keep wanting to talk about me.

Pick the exegitical conversation, or get off my back. I have to be honest, I mean no disrespect to you, but I could give a frog's bruised behind what you think of me or any "made up doctrine" you try to pin on me. What I'm interested in is what does the Bible say, not am I more right than you or not.

So, pick your cause, talk shop, (bible) or talk about me and your made up doctrine. I've given you the verses and what they say as I see it. You can either say i see it wrong and show me how I'm wrong, or continue to try to point the finger at me.

 

[Quickfire]

lol lol to funny hahahahaha you now its true though you have to wonder is it just a ploy but like your sense of humor

 

[TannarDarr]

You were the first to attack in post#6 but then act like I am the attacker.
Why not practice what you preached in post #6 and go do good deeds instead of sitting here trying to stir an argument?

Do you deliberately misrepresent the truth? Or are you just that narcissistic you don't even realize you lie?

The end of post six has this.....>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>So, that's why I ask.... And I'm sorry my rant, fell from your quote. Has nothing to do with you, it's just one of those topics...... for me.<<<<<<<<<

1) I was asking for your input, and gave a detailed reason for my question.
2) I state publically that I ranted off your quote, and clearly said it has nothing to do with you.

You try to claim I started the attack first.

I'll accept your public apology, and ask yo uagain, do you wish to talk about the exegetics, DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT EPHESIANS FOUR IS TALKING ABOUT??????????...... or do you want to continue to protect your "ego/image" at my expense?

I don't have an ego. I get praised and ripped in my line of work with equal abandon. I want to get to the truth. Now, you can show me I'm wrong, or continue to cry and hide behind misdirections and misrepresentations.

It's in your hands here.

 

[TannarDarr]

i understand bro but if i was to choose a denomination i would choose s anglican catholic as far as im aware they do not except gay marriage,, but the reason for that is my roots, anyways i was christend church of england which many see as protestant but in actual fact its cathlolic, and many people are un aware of that fact,

but as it stands at the moment i see my self as the church and i would still see my self as that if i went to a church that let gay people in g , as god does want all is children to be saved, gay people do have a right to go to church to , but i would not go to a church that allowed gay marriage, i hope they can be saved too, who knows (please dont get me caught up in this affliction lol)

nope defo a no no and i see your point on that one as being a bad doctrine, im a follower i follow my beliefs and i dont have to get involved n bad doctrines , such as gay marriage, that my choice, but now seeing as i have read it, and no thanks to you lol, i have to , for any one who is gay you have stay on the right path, not the bent one,

but once again he who see,s no evil fears no evils , i could choose to go around the internet looking for bad doctrines or get involved n them but i dont have that,s my choice.

no more afflictions for me, woopeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I disagree with parts of your post. Which, since I'm not you shouldn't be a surprise.

But, the over all direction of your thoughts we paddle in the same boat, AND the same direction. I'm ok with that.

I'd disagree with you on the Gay marriage, but that is an extensive conversation and I won't start it here. PLUS just having the conversation usually gets you banned on some of these sites, and I guess without knowing who to talk to before starting the conversation I'm cautious.

Get with me via non public image if I set your curiosity off there. Wasn't my intent. Heck I can't win here...

 

[crossnote]

You can keep trying to discredit me with the doctrine word. I'll just roll my eyes more and more until I look like.....

View attachment 56783

I am asking you to engage the hermeneutics and exegetics of the verses.

you keep wanting to talk about me.

Pick the exegitical conversation, or get off my back. I have to be honest, I mean no disrespect to you, but I could give a frog's bruised behind what you think of me or any "made up doctrine" you try to pin on me. What I'm interested in is what does the Bible say, not am I more right than you or not.

So, pick your cause, talk shop, (bible) or talk about me and your made up doctrine. I've given you the verses and what they say as I see it. You can either say i see it wrong and show me how I'm wrong, or continue to try to point the finger at me.

Those verses have nothing to do with deeds over doctrine...Paul laid out solid doctrine in the first three chapters of Ephesians and now in the light of that doctrine shows the christian what their walk ought to look like.

 

[Quickfire]

oops sorry cross note didnt realise it was about you, cross note is ok tannardarr dude go easy

 

[cfultz3]

Then, scripture itself says other wise. And it speaks AGAINST self teaching at that.

Was said to this:

We should allow scripture to motivate what we believe more than what teachers say today.

So, we should not let Scripture motivate what we believe?

Anyone who has the Spirit is guided to read Scripture and learn from Him.

Who is to teach us also? Only another man who stands upon a pulpit speaking of his theology? Isn't that why we became Protestants? If we learn only from another, then we have only a denomination to lead us.

The Words of God are a pearl from Wisdom, not to be abandoned so that we learn from another.

 

[TannarDarr]

Those verses have nothing to do with deeds over doctrine...Paul laid out solid doctrine in the first three chapters of Ephesians and now in the light of that doctrine shows the christian what their walk ought to look like.

Really? First off no one said deeds over doctrine. I said it states you get maturity through works, AND KNOWLEDGE through works as well. And maturity comes from works.

And nothing in anything I said constradicts the first three chapters. :| Allow me to detail my thinking......

9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what fndoes it mean except that He also fnhad descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave someas apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the fnsaints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the fnknowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature fnwhich belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 fnAs a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftinessfnin deceitful scheming; 15 but fnspeaking the truth in love, fnwe are to grow up in allaspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together fnby what every joint supplies, according to the fnproper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

9 and 10 shows the person we discuss here is Jesus, right?

vs 11 JESUS appointed some as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. This is the Hiearchy of the Church, right? Henceforth I'll call it the CHURCH LEADERS(listen up Catholics I'm gonna make a case for your church inadvertently.)

vs 12 explains what their role is... EQUIPPING the saints (me and you, allegedly)

equipping us for what? >>>>> wait for it>>>>>>> hold on>>>>>>> got a drink??? and a chair??>>>> sit down.......

Here it is...>>>>>>>> WORKS OF SERVICE!!!!!!! (we can agree this is deeds, right?)

What are the works for? TO build up the Church/body of Christ.... how far built up????

>>>>>Until we all attain unity in the faith (protestants aren't even close to unity in the faith)
>>>>>AND Knowledge of the Son of God.<<<<<< notice you get knowledge through works here.... but works led by the church leaders.

vs 13b TO A MATURE MAN the word there for mature is perfect in many translations.

SO THROUGH THE WORKS you are led to Christian maturity.

How mature?
If JESUS Spiritual maturity was measured with an image of a glass, our glass would be

just as full (measure)
and just as big (stature)

OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST. Not really a lot of room to wiggle.

Maturity, as full and complete as jesus lived on earth occurs through works led by the Church leaders.

Now, does that make sense?

Yup. The "Christian" who sits back and studies until they know it all, never practice the execution. Holding all that knowledge does not a thing for them.

You can have ZERO KNOWLEDGE, but if you do the works HE WILL teach and mature you.


So,, I've given my case. Be as detailed and show me how it means other than I expressed. In fact, this is about to hijack a thread, I'll cut it out and make another thread called Ephesians 4.

 

[TannarDarr]

Was said to this:



So, we should not let Scripture motivate what we believe?

Anyone who has the Spirit is guided to read Scripture and learn from Him.

Who is to teach us also? Only another man who stands upon a pulpit speaking of his theology? Isn't that why we became Protestants? If we learn only from another, then we have only a denomination to lead us.

The Words of God are a pearl from Wisdom, not to be abandoned so that we learn from another.

If youare cocky enough to think it's about what you can teach yourself.

Scriipture there above posted, shows it comes through works led by the Church, not through study done alone in your closet.

 

[cfultz3]

If youare cocky enough to think it's about what you can teach yourself.

Scriipture there above posted, shows it comes through works led by the Church, not through study done alone in your closet.

Did you miss the mentioning of Spirit and Wisdom? Maturity does not come through works, it comes through Christ. If one grows by works, then those who are paralyzed are in a heap of trouble. But, if my maturity comes by faith, then all the more, I shall rely on Christ and what He did, not I.

 

[TannarDarr]

Did you miss the mentioning of Spirit and Wisdom? Maturity does not come through works, it comes through Christ. If one grows by works, then those who are paralyzed are in a heap of trouble. But, if my maturity comes by faith, then all the more, I shall rely on Christ and what He did, not I.

Ok Fultz. You realize you just said Eph 4:13 and 14 are a lie. You can close your eyes, and ignore the verses and pretend all day long that you are wise enough to correct Paul's stupid mistakes in his letters.

But I'm siding with Him.

Through works, you get unity, knowledge and perfection/maturity, to the fullness of Christ's maturity.

I broke it down, you can sit there and close your eyes, fingers in the ears and scream over and over whatever you want us to believe, or you can engage...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Doctrine is often spoken of positively in Scripture. Paul lays out doctrine ...11 chapters worth before he starts up with works in chapter12 of the book of Romans and he repeats this pattern in his other epistles including Ephesians which book you cited.
Notice what you have been writing?...YOUR doctrine.

That is worth repeating:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
​

 

[cfultz3]

Ok Fultz. You realize you just said Eph 4:13 and 14 are a lie. You can close your eyes, and ignore the verses and pretend all day long that you are wise enough to correct Paul's stupid mistakes in his letters.

But I'm siding with Him.

Through works, you get unity, knowledge and perfection/maturity, to the fullness of Christ's maturity.

I broke it down, you can sit there and close your eyes, fingers in the ears and scream over and over whatever you want us to believe, or you can engage...

Where does it say we mature by deeds?

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But, I do see this about love (note that it is by love we are to speak. Love sure grows one. But, I see nothing of deeds)

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Did you miss the mentioning of Spirit and Wisdom? Maturity does not come through works, it comes through Christ. If one grows by works, then those who are paralyzed are in a heap of trouble. But, if my maturity comes by faith, then all the more, I shall rely on Christ and what He did, not I.

You might want to clarify this sentence a bit.

Maturity does not come through works (of law), it comes through (faith in) Christ, (which produces fruit of the spirit, i.e., works of faith)
​

 

[cfultz3]

You might want to clarify this sentence a bit.

Maturity does not come through works (of law), it comes through (faith in) Christ, (which produces fruit of the spirit, i.e., works of faith)
​

By all means, I take this as being my own words. Thank you HeRoseFromTheDead.

 

[TannarDarr]

That is worth repeating:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
​

THE doctrine Paul discussed is what they were taught. That's what it means, teachings. PAUL objected to all but the people appointed by the Church and Christ to "teach them". That's why he had such angst to the circumcision group, and other groups.

TODAY, with all the other denominations you have, every one of them is a non doctrinal denomination by the standards of the world of those times.

Paul says remember what we taught you(doctrine).

he didn't' say read my letters and make your own doctrine. (trinity, sola scriptura, etc...)

 

[crossnote]

Tannar, God has gifted many with teaching God's Word. What criteria do you or your Church use to determine who's qualified?