Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[eternally-gratefull]

This is true about the word cosmos (world).


Paul's whole argument in Romans 1 thru 3 is about the condition of man.. Unregenerate who love their sin, and none seek after God. Both Jew and gentile. Then Paul gives the good new ''But Now the righteousness of God''

The word cosmos (world) can mean everyone- pay attention to what Paul says about this in regards to 'everyone' just before he gets to the 'But Now' in Rom 3:19. The cosmos can mean all unbelievers (1 Cor 4:9), it can mean the universe as a whole (Acts 17:24), it can mean the earth (John 13:1) It can mean all people except believers (John 15:8) etc etc etc.

This is why when we look at the usage of Cosmos (world) we can see it does not mean every single person cf. John 1:29. What does cosmos mean here.. I would say it means believers - Jew and gentile cf. 1 cor 4:9; Ephesians 2:14;

The main point is that.. Christ is given as a gift, and that is from God, and those who receive the gift are those who believe, and this is the purpose of the gift, that those who" believe will never perish but have everlasting life". The world here I would say means none other than all men of different stripes.. as Paul tells us Jew and gentile, Kings,Paupers, servants. we are all one in Christ.. Not every person but only those who believe they are the all and the meaning of cosmos here.

We can see were the word 'cosmos' (world is used of all unbelievers yet not Christians Rom 3:6. We know this as believers do not hate Christ.

Most don't like this, it doesn't seem fair (according to mans standards). Yet it has nothing to do with fairness it is all to do with justice.

Those God saves receives His saving grace, those he passes over receive Justice.

No matter what way we look at John 3:16, God's purpose is limited to those who believe. I agree with the following

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

and

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

Those the Father gives to the son will come to Christ in faith and persevere till the end.

Its a good debate, and I know you know this EG, but for other readers remember there is a unity among Christians whether you believe in unconditonal election or conditonal election and that unity is salvation by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

Up I forget, in romans 1. Those who hardened their own hearts against God had no excuse. Because they not only KNEW GOD, they KNEW THAT THEIR SIN caused them to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

These are spiritual things, which according to fatalistic view, is impossible for them to know.

We also have in Romans 2 how eternal life is only given to them who OBEY, And is not for those who are disobedient. In other words, regeneration comes when one obeys the issue is, What is the act of obedience required? Of course Jesus tells us in John 3, as in that we must BELIEVE.

Then of course we have in romans 3. How it is we recieve righteousness through faith.

so we see the pattern in all of these passages how now only do the unbeliever know and understand who and what God is, but they know they are rightly judged, We find in the next two chapters how they must act on the knowledge God gives them, including the gospel. In faith if they are to be saved

While yes, I agree, world is not always everyone.

In john 3 it must be.

Since a non believer is in a condemned state UNTIL they believe, That puts EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD in the same state (the world) so for anyone to be given the promise of never perishing and having eternal life based on their faith in Christ. God would have to die for them all.

John 6 is another one. Seek the food which endures forever. Eat the bread from heaven which ne can eat and not die. CHew on his flesh and drink his blood. And you will have eternal life. And be risen on the last day.

While I agree, John 3 and the life given is limited to those who believe, If it is not offered to ALL who do not believe. (The world) then all of john 3 is prety much meaningless.In facts the whole gospel is meaningless. If God miraculously makes one born again and they are saved, Why gives the gospel at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. The HS was sent to judge the world of sin righteousness and judgment, Again, those makes no sense unless the world can heed the HS warning and his teaching and his judgment and have the ability t also heed his good news of Gods love and mercy and repent.

 

[Justified]

This is true about the word cosmos (world).


Paul's whole argument in Romans 1 thru 3 is about the condition of man.. Unregenerate who love their sin, and none seek after God. Both Jew and gentile. Then Paul gives the good new ''But Now the righteousness of God''

The word cosmos (world) can mean everyone- pay attention to what Paul says about this in regards to 'everyone' just before he gets to the 'But Now' in Rom 3:19. The cosmos can mean all unbelievers (1 Cor 4:9), it can mean the universe as a whole (Acts 17:24), it can mean the earth (John 13:1) It can mean all people except believers (John 15:8) etc etc etc.

This is why when we look at the usage of Cosmos (world) we can see it does not mean every single person cf. John 1:29. What does cosmos mean here.. I would say it means believers - Jew and gentile cf. 1 cor 4:9; Ephesians 2:14;

The main point is that.. Christ is given as a gift, and that is from God, and those who receive the gift are those who believe, and this is the purpose of the gift, that those who" believe will never perish but have everlasting life". The world here I would say means none other than all men of different stripes.. as Paul tells us Jew and gentile, Kings,Paupers, servants. we are all one in Christ.. Not every person but only those who believe they are the all and the meaning of cosmos here.

We can see were the word 'cosmos' (world is used of all unbelievers yet not Christians Rom 3:6. We know this as believers do not hate Christ.

Most don't like this, it doesn't seem fair (according to mans standards). Yet it has nothing to do with fairness it is all to do with justice.

Those God saves receives His saving grace, those he passes over receive Justice.

No matter what way we look at John 3:16, God's purpose is limited to those who believe. I agree with the following

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

and

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

Those the Father gives to the son will come to Christ in faith and persevere till the end.

Its a good debate, and I know you know this EG, but for other readers remember there is a unity among Christians whether you believe in unconditonal election or conditonal election and that unity is salvation by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!

We could go back and forth on world and never come to an end but the one point that I do strongly disagree with is your comment

"Most don't like this, it doesn't seem fair (according to mans standards). Yet it has nothing to do with fairness it is all to do with justice.

Those God saves receives His saving grace, those he passes over receive Justice.'

Now I understand you are coming at this from a Calvinist view so I know why you say it, but the problem is that it is not factual. The Calvinist "meticulous determinism" removes the idea of justice form the equation. You like to say that God before time pick out a select group to be saved and only those can be saved. But then you say that those that are condemned to hell are condemned because they did not trust in God so as to be saved. My question is how could they have trusted in God under your theology?

For you to say that God passes over them is just a nice euphemism for condemned them. It may make you feel better but it is not biblical. God is indeed just and that means that ALL have the same opportunity to trust in Him. What you present does not meet that threshold

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@phil36 and others, The other issue with John 3 and “world“ earning only the elect.

If this was true. The passage would read somethign like For God so loved the world (elect) that they will believe and they will have eternal life

It does not, It says for God so loved the world That WHOEVER Or ANYONE who believes. They will not peruish but they have eternal life

Also in vs 17, We have that Christ was not sent to judge the world. But that the world might be saved.

Saved is in the aorist passive subjunctive . Which means it is not assures that the world will be saved, It is a possibility. The terms again are given in vs 16, That whoever believes will be saved.

 

[rayzor]

Yes it is True !

brightfame52 The devil is 2 make war with the children of pride.u could b right in doctrine but if your heart is full of pride as mine is then your words won't have much power.Powerful r right words this require pure motive do u care about this man soul our how wise u are?

 

[peldom10]

@phil36 and others, The other issue with John 3 and “world“ earning only the elect.

If this was true. The passage would read somethign like For God so loved the world (elect) that they will believe and they will have eternal life

It does not, It says for God so loved the world That WHOEVER Or ANYONE who believes. They will not peruish but they have eternal life

Also in vs 17, We have that Christ was not sent to judge the world. But that the world might be saved.

Saved is in the aorist passive subjunctive . Which means it is not assures that the world will be saved, It is a possibility. The terms again are given in vs 16, That whoever believes will be saved.

You seem to be suggesting that one need not do anything in application of John....above.
Or are you concluding that if we believe we will do God's commandments and thus be compliant?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You seem to be suggesting that one need not do anything in application of John....above.
Or are you concluding that if we believe we will do God's commandments and thus be compliant?

Where is Gods commands found in John 3? Where are they fund in the gospel message?

How do you get obey God, which we have failed and will cottinue to fail to live up to Gods standard (perfection) out of Believe in the name of Jesus and you will be saved?

 

[Evmur]

God will judge every man and woman with perfect fairness, I have hopes for a much wider mercy on that day than either the Calvinist or the arminian.

Election is to be transformed into the image of Christ and membership of His body the church. The doctrine in no way excludes anybody from being saved.

 

[phil36]

You like to say that God before time pick out a select group to be saved and only those can be saved. But then you say that those that are condemned to hell are condemned because they did not trust in God so as to be saved. My question is how could they have trusted in God under your theology?

Hi Justified,

The answer to that is a short one.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— Ephesians 1:3-5

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

and

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " - John 6:37

You have to remember God does not owe man anything, except justice, and that is basically damnation. All have sinned and fall short of His glory and deserving his wrath.

The fact that God chooses to save any of us is amazing grace indeed. So we have saving grace and we have justice in either instance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God will judge every man and woman with perfect fairness, I have hopes for a much wider mercy on that day than either the Calvinist or the arminian.

Election is to be transformed into the image of Christ and membership of His body the church. The doctrine in no way excludes anybody from being saved.

I agree, he will judge with fairness.

And in fairness, all have sinned and fall short.

Israel sinned and fell short. And jesus still wanted to take her under his wing. But as he said they were unwilling.

We are judged based on the cross. And how we react to it. Not based on our own righteousness. Which is filthy rags.

The arminian says we need to maintain salvation or it will be lost. The calvinist (fatalist) seems to be afraid that even falling on our knees and crying out for Gods mercy is works done to earn salvation. So they add that no one could do that unless they were already born again (in a nutshell)

 

[Gideon300]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​

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2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​

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3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​

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4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​

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5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

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6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​

Click to expand...​

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

I don't see the point in covering this issue. Surely it's been done to death? From God's point of view, He is sovereign and everything works out according to His will. From man's point of view, he is responsible for his actions, responsible for his attitudes and his words. Christians are required to work out their salvation in fear and trembling. There is no work required to get saved or even remain saved. There is work to do in order to grow in grace and the knowledge of the truth.

The danger of pushing the election barrow is that Christians will grow complacent and unbelievers will not hear the gospel. If God is going to save people, it does not matter if we are His witnesses or not. Except it does, because the gospel is God's means to save. So the burden is placed on a few who take God seriously and don't live idle lives.

The church is insipid and complacent enough in the Western world. The few Christians in Afghanistan must wonder why nobody seems to care about them. "Oh well, they were predestined to suffer" is not much comfort to them.

We do well to remember what happened to the seven churches in the book of Revelation. None of them survive now. Many Christians believe that Revelation has a future aspect as well as what Lord Jesus was saying back then. We are in the "Laodicean" age in the Western world. I wonder if the Western church will go the same way as Laodicea. It's not looking that good right now.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree, he will judge with fairness.

And in fairness, all have sinned and fall short.

Israel sinned and fell short. And jesus still wanted to take her under his wing. But as he said they were unwilling.

We are judged based on the cross. And how we react to it. Not based on our own righteousness. Which is filthy rags.

The arminian says we need to maintain salvation or it will be lost. The calvinist (fatalist) seems to be afraid that even falling on our knees and crying out for Gods mercy is works done to earn salvation. So they add that no one could do that unless they were already born again (in a nutshell)

And both appeal to scripture to justify their position. One day we'll start to talk about real issues instead of doctrine that has no impact on the Christian life.

 

[phil36]

God will judge every man and woman with perfect fairness,

I agree, he will judge with fairness.

1) While justice usually has been used with reference to a standard of rightness, - Biblical

2) Fairness often has been used with regard to an ability to judge without reference to one's feelings or interests. - Unbiblical.

Remember it is God who Judges therefore gives out justice in the end. And it is for His good purposes and Glory.

 

[Evmur]

1) While justice usually has been used with reference to a standard of rightness, - Biblical

2) Fairness often has been used with regard to an ability to judge without reference to one's feelings or interests. - Unbiblical.

Remember it is God who Judges therefore gives out justice in the end. And it is for His good purposes and Glory.

The Judge of all the world will do what is right, What is right is not subjective. People "oh God is holy, He cannot overlook sin" I say He cannot overlook good deeds either.

The scripture says so.

The sheeps who receive an inheritance do so because of deeds of mercy they performed towards the church. And if anyone so much as give a drink of water to one of the least of Christ's brethren shall not go unrewarded.

The Evangelical view [both Catholic and Protestant] of the final judgement has been skewed from at least the 4th century onwards.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you do. the term must be contextually found. If the concept of "Unconditional election" is being stated by you then you must provide in scripture that Concept. The truth is you have added the word "unconditional" to the word Election.

and have no scripture support for making the change.

No I dont, election is of grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If its of grace, then its no more of works or conditions. Thats enough biblical support !

 

[phil36]

The Judge of all the world will do what is right, What is right is not subjective. People "oh God is holy, He cannot overlook sin" I say He cannot overlook good deeds either

Gods justice is objective

Fairness is subjective

Thats why you don't want fairness you want exactly as God has told us about himself.. He is the God of justice..

I dont understand what your last paragraph is saying. Are you saying that you have a different viewpoint from Evangelicals and Catholics?

 

[Evmur]

Gods justice is objective

Fairness is subjective

Thats why you don't want fairness you want exactly as God has told us about himself.. He is the God of justice..

I dont understand what your last paragraph is saying. Are you saying that you have a different viewpoint from Evangelicals and Catholics?

Yes I do. There are four peoples shown in Matthew 25.
There is the Lord
there are the sheep
there are the goats
and there are "these My brethren"

Since the Church has been raptured ["so shall we ever be with the Lord"] and have reigned with Him a 1, 000 years and "have passed over from judgement to life" and since when He comes to judge "God will bring us with Him"

And since the sheep receive an inheritance based upon works and not grace though faith. there is no way ...

There is no way that the sheeps can be the church.

 

[phil36]

And since the sheep receive an inheritance based upon works and not grace though faith. there is no way ...

There is no way that the sheeps can be the church.

I don't understand what you are saying here Evmur. It's probably my understanding. Could elaborate a bit further, thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God will judge every man and woman with perfect fairness, I have hopes for a much wider mercy on that day than either the Calvinist or the arminian.

Is this a "hope so" kind of faith?

Election is to be transformed into the image of Christ and membership of His body the church

No it's not. Election is always about service. Jesus Christ is The Chosen One in Isa 42:1. Angels are described as "elect" in 1 Tim 5:21. Even the unbeleiver Judas was chosen in John 6:70.

Election transforms no one.

 

[phil36]

Is this a "hope so" kind of faith?


No it's not. Election is always about service. Jesus Christ is The Chosen One in Isa 42:1. Angels are described as "elect" in 1 Tim 5:21. Even the unbeleiver Judas was chosen in John 6:70.

Election transforms no one.

what was Judas chosen for?

 

[Evmur]

Is this a "hope so" kind of faith?


No it's not. Election is always about service. Jesus Christ is The Chosen One in Isa 42:1. Angels are described as "elect" in 1 Tim 5:21. Even the unbeleiver Judas was chosen in John 6:70.

Election transforms no one.

The bible declares "God will judge with equity" equity = perfect fairness.
The bible declares " Whom He foreknew He also predestined, elected etc ... to be conformed to the image of His Son"

We are chosen [elected] in Christ before all worlds began to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace