Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

The point I made was the Arminian (synergist) and the Calvinist (monergist) BOTH must answer why God creates some that spend eternity in hell.

In other words, it’s not only a question for the Calvinist.

[Rom 5:15-16 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

The point I made was the Arminian (synergist) and the Calvinist (monergist) BOTH must answer why God creates some that spend eternity in hell.

In other words, it’s not only a question for the Calvinist.

All Creation and the designs and purposes thereof is for Gods Glory.

 

[NOV25]

I agree. Only way out of this is open theism, which is heretical according to most if not all.

Absolutely right.

Man just cannot reconcile a perfectly loving God while some burn, hence all the heretical doctrines including open theism.

I find it helpful to fully understand that all of creation is, above all, for the glory of God (Father, Son and Spirit).

In other words, God’s numero uno priority in creation is to glorify his trinitarian self. Man’s salvation is secondary, a means to that end.

But I’m “Calvinist” so that’s typically how we see it 😁

 

[NOV25]

All Creation and the designs and purposes thereof is for Gods Glory.

That’s funny, I was just typing something similar when you posted that 👍

 

[brightfame52]

Absolutely right.

Man just cannot reconcile a perfectly loving God while some burn, hence all the heretical doctrines including open theism.

I find it helpful to fully understand that all of creation is, above all, for the glory of God (Father, Son and Spirit).

In other words, God’s numero uno priority in creation is to glorify his trinitarian self. Man’s salvation is secondary, a means to that end.

But I’m “Calvinist” so that’s typically how we see it 😁

So was it Gods will that Adam sin in the beginning and bring sin and death into the world ?

 

[NOV25]

So was it Gods will that Adam sin in the beginning and bring sin and death into the world ?

Yes. Nothing happens outside the will of God.

 

[rogerg]

Yes. Nothing happens outside the will of God.

Not disagreeing, but just out of curiosity, which verses to you have in mind for that - that it was
God's will for Adam to bring sin and death into the world?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. Nothing happens outside the will of God.

So you understand that God decreed Adams fall, and Adam had no choice but to fall according to Gods predetermined will. See some say what you said but mean that it was only Gods permissive will that Adam sinned, but not His own predetermined will that Adam sinned, big difference.

 

[NOV25]

Not disagreeing, but just out of curiosity, which verses to you have in mind for that - that it was
God's will for Adam to bring sin and death into the world?

First thing that comes to mind is the story of Joseph, you meant it for evil but God meant it for good…
Or how about Jonah? It was God’s will that he preach to the Ninevites even if he had to arrange for a whale to carry him there…

Point is, if God goes to such lengths in accomplishing his will in Joseph and Jonah, how much more would he have done to keep the fall from happening if it was his plan to do so?

Ecclesiastes 3
1 Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses.
2 He sets the time for birth and the time for death, the time for planting and the time for pulling up,
3 the time for killing and the time for healing, the time for tearing down and the time for building.
4 He sets the time for sorrow and the time for joy, the time for mourning and the time for dancing,
5 the time for making love and the time for not making love, the time for kissing and the time for not kissing.
6 He sets the time for finding and the time for losing, the time for saving and the time for throwing away,
7 the time for tearing and the time for mending, the time for silence and the time for talk.
8 He sets the time for love and the time for hate, the time for war and the time for peace.
9 What do we gain from all our work?
10 I know the heavy burdens that God has laid on us.
11 He has set the right time for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does.
12 So I realized that all we can do is be happy and do the best we can while we are still alive.
13 All of us should eat and drink and enjoy what we have worked for. It is God's gift.
14 I know that everything God does will last forever. You can't add anything to it or take anything away from it. And one thing God does is to make us stand in awe of him.
15 Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again.

 

[NOV25]

So you understand that God decreed Adams fall, and Adam had no choice but to fall according to Gods predetermined will. See some say what you said but mean that it was only Gods permissive will that Adam sinned, but not His own predetermined will that Adam sinned, big difference.

Not super familiar with the terminology.

All I know is the Father promised the Son a people, a people redeemed by the Spirit. To be redeemed you must first be fallen.

Makes sense though. There is only one God, anything he creates is not God, is imperfect, is sinful or at minimum susceptible to sin (in the case of the angels apparently).

So if the trinitarian God desired to honor himself (each other) via outside means then there was really no way to avoid sin.
If that makes sense. Sorry I have a narsty head cold, little out of it today

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

basically, not even 1/16th of ALL humans, ever born/aborted/etc, can add up to account for how many will be Saved compared to those who will end up DOOMED.

and you people in this thread believe that is revealing the Glory of God?

15/16ths of ALL humanity end up in Hell and you think God is finding greatness amongst brutal defeat?

the true Glory of God is found surrounding those who are Saved.

THEY CHOSE to ACCEPT and not DENY GOD!

 

[Cameron143]

basically, not even 1/16th of ALL humans, ever born/aborted/etc, can add up to account for how many will be Saved compared to those who will end up DOOMED.

and you people in this thread believe that is revealing the Glory of God?

15/16ths of ALL humanity end up in Hell and you think God is finding greatness amongst brutal defeat?

the true Glory of God is found surrounding those who are Saved.

THEY CHOSE to ACCEPT and not DENY GOD!

Is God glorified in the manifestation of His holiness, sovereignty, omnipotence, justice, and righteousness?
And where do your figures come from? Revelation 7:9 speaks of a number no man can number in glory.

 

[rogerg]

Point is, if God goes to such lengths in accomplishing his will in Joseph and Jonah, how much more would he have done to keep the fall from happening if it was his plan to do so?

Well, as I understood your reply, you seemed to not be saying that God didn't prevent it (sorry for the double negs), but rather, that it was God who caused it. I see not preventing, as opposed to causing, to be two very different things. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[NOV25]

15/16ths of ALL humanity end up in Hell and you think God is finding greatness amongst brutal defeat?

There’s your problem. Your “god” is experiencing “brutal defeat”, this is a false god.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Is God glorified in the manifestation of His holiness, sovereignty, omnipotence, justice, and righteousness?
And where do your figures come from? Revelation 7:9 speaks of a number no man can number in glory.

the point is God began after Tower of Babel with a single nation (Deut 32:8-9)

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the Sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.


and then God would pick a single person, normally male, and delegate between God-Prophets-entire Israel Nation. you just followed the Law and obeyed the Commandments anyone could be eligible for God's Kingdom.

But God goes from dealing with a Nation through one man at a time and then offers a different Plan so ALL Nations [peoples](Gentiles) can be included. but now, God works individually one on one, not one male for the entire village.

so God did not set it up to be Glorious in things that break His heart.
there is no Glory for God, by anyone truly Saved, that believes He wants us to give Him Glory in Him forcing someone to spend Eternal Damnation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

There’s your problem. Your “god” is experiencing “brutal defeat”, this is a false god.

i never said my God was being defeated by anything.

 

[Cameron143]

the point is God began after Tower of Babel with a single nation (Deut 32:8-9)

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the Sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.


and then God would pick a single person, normally male, and delegate between God-Prophets-entire Israel Nation. you just followed the Law and obeyed the Commandments anyone could be eligible for God's Kingdom.

But God goes from dealing with a Nation through one man at a time and then offers a different Plan so ALL Nations [peoples](Gentiles) can be included. but now, God works individually one on one, not one male for the entire village.

so God did not set it up to be Glorious in things that break His heart.
there is no Glory for God, by anyone truly Saved, that believes He wants us to give Him Glory in Him forcing someone to spend Eternal Damnation.

I understand your point. Can you answer my questions?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Is God glorified in the manifestation of His holiness, sovereignty, omnipotence, justice, and righteousness?
And where do your figures come from? Revelation 7:9 speaks of a number no man can number in glory.

God can be Glorified in ALL things. BUT, you, myself, NO ONE on this thread can tell me that God is feeling Victorious about a few high fiving that God sent someone to Eternal Damnation. i'm sure this is the type of Thread God stands in front of a mirror and adjusts His Crown because this Thread makes Him feel all good, warm, and fuzzy about Himself.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

this is not Biblical at all, but since Genesis 6, and knowing after Noah's Flood seed of Nephillim still survived in Noah's Lineage. and no Nephillim ever Repented for being the spawns of Evil. it would be a much easier thought to consider that the remaining people who refused to accept Christ, but FOR this thread, God chose to send to Eternal Damnation, were genetic seeds of Nephillim, even though, not in forms of a Giant.

 

[John146]

First thing that comes to mind is the story of Joseph, you meant it for evil but God meant it for good…
Or how about Jonah? It was God’s will that he preach to the Ninevites even if he had to arrange for a whale to carry him there…

Point is, if God goes to such lengths in accomplishing his will in Joseph and Jonah, how much more would he have done to keep the fall from happening if it was his plan to do so?

Ecclesiastes 3
1 Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses.
2 He sets the time for birth and the time for death, the time for planting and the time for pulling up,
3 the time for killing and the time for healing, the time for tearing down and the time for building.
4 He sets the time for sorrow and the time for joy, the time for mourning and the time for dancing,
5 the time for making love and the time for not making love, the time for kissing and the time for not kissing.
6 He sets the time for finding and the time for losing, the time for saving and the time for throwing away,
7 the time for tearing and the time for mending, the time for silence and the time for talk.
8 He sets the time for love and the time for hate, the time for war and the time for peace.
9 What do we gain from all our work?
10 I know the heavy burdens that God has laid on us.
11 He has set the right time for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does.
12 So I realized that all we can do is be happy and do the best we can while we are still alive.
13 All of us should eat and drink and enjoy what we have worked for. It is God's gift.
14 I know that everything God does will last forever. You can't add anything to it or take anything away from it. And one thing God does is to make us stand in awe of him.
15 Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again.

Never had a Calvinist explain this…as always, they end up adding to the word of God to fit their theology.

Jonah 3
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.