Are all nations saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Are all kings? All that are in authority?
Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?
- Thread starter LeeLoving
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Are all nations saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Are all kings? All that are in authority?
Free will is not a Biblical concept? Then why does God present people with choices so often? Why did He lay before the Israelites the choice between life and death if there was no free will ability to accomplish it?
The Augustinian concept of the bondage of the will is not Biblical, though his characterization of Pelagius as forwarding that man is basically good and capable of self-salvation is also not Biblical. We sell ourselves into sin willingly, and THAT makes us slaves.
The issue, though, is that Calvinists and Catholics both teach a doctrine of man in their conception of original sin which came via Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. The church would be so much better served if it read Jerome, Justin Martyr, and John Cassian on free will rather than placing so much into the writings of Augustine.
“For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;” 1 Timothy 2:2–3 (KJV 1900)
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
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EleventhHour
Guest
Choice yes... Free will no
"Free will" is philosophical school of thought developed by the ancient Greeks
Augustine was wrong too on the bondage of the will.
He infused his own personal failings into the understanding of scripture... Agree
Did you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will? It cannot be proven wrong, only rejected.
You forgot verse 4, who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Don’t privately interpret this to mean all kinds of men.
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
Choice is all that's required for free will. Now, if someone were to argue that they were free from any constraints then yeah that's not Biblical or rational but that's not how free will is commonly understood. We really have the choice whether to follow God or not, free from coercion. We just don't left to our own devices, but the capacity is there.
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EleventhHour
Guest
I will add it to my list.
I can state this much as I have already mentioned to you... belief will occur after we are persuaded, convicted, convinced..... these are a passive reaction to hearing truth. We cannot will being persuaded.
Prove that we are incapable of being persuaded... then you may have an argument, but you cannot.
We both know we are fully persuaded of many things day in and day out .... for one you are persuaded of the five points of Calvinism.
You cannot perceive that God does not love all mankind. Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every soul whom he receiveth. It would then stand to reason that, if there are some that he does not chasten, then he does not love them.
Psalms 73, Truly God is good to Israel (this being Jacob/Israel, Gen 32:28), even to such as are of a clean heart. But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped, For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (divinely punished) like other men. verse 12-17, Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been "plagued," and chastened every morning. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; Then understood I their end.
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EleventhHour
Guest
I would state no... free will means the exercise of choice without any determinants/determinism at any point in a person's life.
That is not reality.
A cat cannot be persuaded to be a dog. But if God were to change one into a dog, as he does sinners into saints, no persuasion is necessary.
Have you given all your savings to the poor? Do you have a gun? How about impure thoughts? And evil imaginations?
What you're speaking of is a libertine free will, which I agree is neither Biblical nor rational. But the only question is whether there is any determinant or restriction of the will causing us to not choose to follow Jesus when the gospel is preached. I don't see any such restriction nor do I think that such a restriction is Biblical. After all, does it not say "in a man's heart he plans his way"?
Your questions indicate you may not recognize what righteousness is, and have missed the point of Jesus ladling on such strict requirements for perfection.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Okay then lets just take the word "metanoia" out of the bible
Continue on people... obviously I am not able to persuade otherwise
... this is not unusual when one has cannot step outside of one's "belief system" to give it a careful reexamination.