Does anyone know of....

[BillyBob]

I reject your reasoning.

God is good not just to a chosen few but to all who love Him.

We do disagree! However, God is loving in that man is restrained form being as bad as he could be.
But, God does no one an injustice when He withholds His grace, He just leaves (many) to fall under the weight of their own sin. However, He does reserve some for himself, those that Christ died for!
Therefore, when we read scripture which indicates that He turned his back on someone – we should not be alarmed or surprised. After all, did He not turn His back on His very own son!

 

[Rufus]

I agree with this passage and what is being taught.
The problem seems to be that there are those who, when they read it, are quick to say that it does not mean what it says because that would indicate that we have an unfair God. However, the truth is that God does as He wishes! He does not owe man the least little thing! When He does bless us with His undeserved favor, our reaction should be to fall on our face with thankfulness, that He should take interest in such a worm as we are!

AMEN, Brother! AND...here's the really big kicker: The two sons are still morally culpable because they willingly chose to not listen to their father. When God's will intersects with man's this means that God's will is always done...while man's will, as well is simultaneously done! There's a tension here that really is beyond human comprehension -- but this doesn't change the fact that that this is what scripture teaches.

God's hand was clearly in everything that happened to Joseph in the OT. All the evil that befell Joseph was "allowed" by God. Yet, at the same time his brothers acknowledged their sin. We know this because they lied to their father Jacob about what happened to Joseph when they returned home. And even much later in life, the brothers still recognized and acknowledged their sin when Joseph confronted them. Bottom line: God's will and the sinful brothers were in sync and both were done! God got what he wanted and the brothers got what they wanted -- or so they thought.

The account of Abimelech's encounter with God over Sarah reveals this very same truth (Gen 20:3-6). God's will and Abimelech's intersected so seamlessly that after Abimelech defended himself before God declaring his heart's integrity and the innocence of his hands toward Sarah, God's response is absolutely mind-boggling! God did not deny the truth of what Abimelech stated! He actually agreed with him -- but with a caveat! In v. 6, God states: "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. Ultimately, God saved Sarah from this wicked king by his effectual grace. His grace restrained Ambimelech's intentions and actions toward Sarah.

And every true child of God recognizes and acknowledges this great truth. Every saint knows in his heart of hearts that God ULTIMATELY must receive the glory for any and all good works performed by the saints. Look what happens after the saints receive their crowns as rewards for their service to Christ:

Rev 4:9-11
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
NIV

These saints (24 Elders) now in turn acknowledge that ultimately only their Lord and Savior is WORTHY! And the very first item on the list of worthiness is God's GLORY! They cast their crowns at his feet, knowing that apart from Christ in this life they could DO NOTHING (Jn 15:5)!

 

[Rufus]

The God of the Bible is not as you describe. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a loving, patient and good God. You seem to see Him as a god like Zeus, giving mankind no recourse in his own purpose or destiny. I reject your reasoning.

God is good not just to a chosen few but to all who love Him.

Which would be only the "chosen few" who were given new hearts and the gift of the Holy Spirit by which to love Him. The unsaved hate God and his Christ. They hate knowledge and wisdom and truth. They love the darkness. The Natural Man has no heart for God.

 

[Lamar]

Which would be only the "chosen few" who were given new hearts and the gift of the Holy Spirit by which to love Him. The unsaved hate God and his Christ. They hate knowledge and wisdom and truth. They love the darkness. The Natural Man has no heart for God.

So God choses some of the natural men to love Him?

So what happens to the natural men who God does not choose to love Him?

 

[Lamar]

However, He does reserve some for himself, those that Christ died for!

Yes, Christ died for the sins of mankind. Those who chose Him of their own free will be saved.

This is the will of God.

 

[Inquisitor]

Does anyone know of people who are convinced of the validity of the tenets of Calvinism and are also assured that they are not part of those chosen few?

If we can be assured of our salvation because of predestination, can the opposite be true of our damnation?

I believe the only way you can be confident regarding your salvation.

Is in whether your love for others is growing during your Christian life.

Faith and love are the two pillars of the Christian life.

You were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another;
just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

A simple gospel and a simple commandment, not much else to say.

 

[Lamar]

I believe the only way you can be confident regarding your salvation.

Is in whether your love for others is growing during your Christian life.

Faith and love are the two pillars of the Christian life.

You were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another;
just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

A simple gospel and a simple commandment, not much else to say.

Okay but what about the question?

Do you know of anyone?

 

[Rufus]

So God choses some of the natural men to love Him?

So what happens to the natural men who God does not choose to love Him?

Do not all men belong to God? Are not all the clay pots in this world His? You seem to think that our lives are our own? Is this what you think?

Job 41:11
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
NIV

Since everything under heaven belongs to the Almighty, then doesn't he have the right to do as he wishes with what is his?

Rom 9:16-21
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (Translate: it doesn't depend on man's "free" will!) 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Translate: It depends on God's will.)

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (Translate: Beware that we make our finite, carnal, worldly human reasoning our own final authority for determining orthodoxy or orthopraxy.) 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Translate: Rhetorical question! With the only answer being "yes" given Job 41:11 and Rom 9.)
NIV

So...to answer your first question, God in eternity has chosen many who He will save and He empowers the helpless dead in time and space to love him and believe on him, according to the unilateral promises of the New Covenant.

Re your second question: Those God did not elect unto salvation, he leaves to their own sinful devices and rightly condemns them; for all men, having the knowledge of good and evil, know they are guilty sinners. So, these will justly be condemned along with all the fallen angels whom God also excluded from any salvific remedy. Since God is just in condemning all the fallen angels, then how can he be unjust for condemning many fallen men? Clearly, God is not morally obligated to save anyone.

 

[BillyBob]

Since everything under heaven belongs to the Almighty, then doesn't he have the right to do as he wishes with what is his?

Therefore, when we read scripture which indicates that He turned his back on someone, letting them fall under the weight of their own sin, – we should not be alarmed or surprised. After all, did He not turn His back on His very own son!

 

[Lamar]

So...to answer your first question, God in eternity has chosen many who He will save and He empowers the helpless dead in time and space to love him and believe on him, according to the unilateral promises of the New Covenant.

So this "empowerment" is compelled? Is there no sincere and heartfelt desire of the "helpless dead" to want God?

 

[Rufus]

It does not matter "how I interpret" the verse.[/B]

The Word of God exist as a lamp for mankind to guide his path. If you are interpreting the verse to mean that we do not direct our own steps then the Bible has no purpose. In other words, your verse is general in nature and can not be viewed in such a rigid and all-encompassing manner.

Just as Esther was told to decide her role in saving the Jews, it was her choice. If she would not save the Jews God would pick someone else to do His will. (Esther 4:12-15)

On the issue of Eli's sons, God would not allow their repentance, they were past that point. But it was their choice to follow that path.
Eli's sons could have been great leaders for God but they chose evil. God puts limits on our time to repent, after that point we may simply be pawns in His plans.

So in a board sense "mankind" is following the path laid out by God but "individuals" are free to follow that path or not.

Well then...going by your own logic, if it doesn't matter to you how you interpret Jer 10:23 (or any verse for that matter), then why should it matter to me how I interpret Ps 119:105? If Jer 10:23 is an inconvenient truth that you don't want to deal with in terms of your theology, then why should I be concerned about Ps 119:105? What's good for the goose shouldn't also be good for the gander?

Secondly, what I bolded in red is your fallacious, finite reasoning, which you make your final authority for determining your theology, when instead you should let the Word of God be your final authority.

Thirdly, the fact that the verse is "general in nature" greatly weakens your argument, since such sweeping, broad-brushed verses are teaching us biblical principles. And "principles", by definition, are comprehensive fundamental laws, doctrines or assumptions. Moreover, this principle is taught in many places in scripture besides Jer 10:23.

Lastly, I recently proved on another thread that this theological principle is true from Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it in the external world). Man is not a sovereign, autonomous being, as so many pride themselves as being There are also things in this natural world to which man is subservient.

 

[Rufus]

So this "empowerment" is compelled? Is there no sincere and heartfelt desire of the "helpless dead" to want God?

Is that how you view God's rescue mission of the helpless, enslaved Hebrews our of Egypt? God "forced" them to leave? Or did God "force" Pharaoh (a type of Satan) to let his firstborn go.

 

[Lamar]

Is that how you view God's rescue mission of the helpless, enslaved Hebrews our of Egypt? God "forced" them to leave? Or did God "force" Pharaoh (a type of Satan) to let his firstborn go.

It's a fair question based upon "your" statement. If you won't question the questions then just don't reply.

 

[Magenta]

God is good not just to a chosen few but to all who love Him.

The question then becomes, who loves God? Surely not those who are hostile in their minds toward Him...
Plus, I would think any Christian could/should/would affirm that God is just to ALL.

Romans 8:6-7

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Rufus]

It's a fair question based upon "your" statement. If you won't question the questions then just don't reply.

And so was my question to your question. When you use the word "compel" (force) the underlying assumption is that the objects of God's effectual [empowering] grace are anything but helpless or powerless. How can God be portrayed as a merciful and compassionate Savior and at the same time as a tyrant for saving people by forcing them to enter his kingdom? God cannot be both. Yet...he CAN sovereignly and freely choose, according to the counsel of his own will and good pleasure, to raise the dead to life! What is more helpless than a dead person!? When Jesus physically raised Lazarus from his tomb, did he "force" Lazarus to rise against his own will, or did He graciously free a totally helpless man from the bonds of death? If the latter, then why isn't God pictured by all professing Christians as a merciful and compassionate Savior who "came down" (in the Holy Spirit) to free his people from the bonds of spiritual death so that they would be a truly free people?

Therefore, my question that alluded to the Exodus was just as fair since the Exodus narrative describes the ancient Hebrews as being helpless, which is why God told Moses that "he would come down" to rescue his firstborn. Of course, many in the Church today do not see God's salvation in this helpless-rescue light. Instead, his salvation is portrayed more as a quid pro quo business arrangement -- an agreement -- a bargain, whereby God says to men, "You do this...and I'll do that".

 

[Rufus]

The question then becomes, who loves God? Surely not those who are hostile in their minds toward Him...
Plus, I would think any Christian could/should/would affirm that God is just to ALL.

Romans 8:6-7

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

And many here would understand Deut 30:6 as saying God forcefully circumcised his chosen people's hearts.

 

[Magenta]

And many here would understand Deut 30:6 as saying God forcefully circumcised his chosen people's hearts.

Or that doing so FORCES them to believe. We hear that one too often as well.

Also characterized as God forcibly kidnapping people against their will.

Then we are told that is what we believe, which is simply slander.

I love how you explained it as God's love...

But liars love their lies.

 

[Rufus]

Or that doing so FORCES them to believe. We hear that one too often as well.

Indeed! Such people might as well say that a cardiac arrest victim is unmercifully forced back to life when CPR or some other revival technique is successfully applied to them.

 

[Magenta]

Indeed! Such people might as well say that a cardiac arrest victim is unmercifully forced
back to life when CPR or some other revival technique is successfully applied to them.

Scripture affirms that we were made alive while yet dead in our sins.

According to some, God is a mean ol' tyrant for doing so.

Not my cup of tea, for sure!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And many here would understand Deut 30:6 as saying God forcefully circumcised his chosen people's hearts.

And yet, those God would not let into the Promise Land and then attempted after their own children went were killed and God told them they would die and so did Moses. Those were supposedly chosen people and yet they died in disobedience. If they had a circumcised heart they would have obeyed.