Does anyone know of....

[Nehemiah6]

Yes but you and I do not have the ability to choose.

Did you not choose to respond to this post?

What Adam received as a human being, all human beings receive. And the Bible is full of confirmations that men chose either evil or good. If there was no ability to choose, why would the Gospel even exist? Kindly give that some serious thought.

 

[Rufus]

Did you not choose to respond to this post?

What Adam received as a human being, all human beings receive. And the Bible is full of confirmations that men chose either evil or good. If there was no ability to choose, why would the Gospel even exist? Kindly give that some serious thought.

God gave the Law to the Israelites through Moses and commanded them to obey all things contained therein (Ex 19:5; Deut 28:1, etc.); yet, after Moses' death Joshua told them that they will not be able to serve the Lord and that He will not forgive their transgressions or sins (Josh 24:19). Since the Jews had no ability to obey, why did God give them the Law in the first place. command the Israelites to keep what they could not obey, and even worse punish them severely for their disobedience?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

God gave the Law to the Israelites through Moses and commanded them to obey all things contained therein (Ex 19:5; Deut 28:1, etc.); yet, after Moses' death Joshua told them that they will not be able to serve the Lord and that He will not forgive their transgressions or sins (Josh 24:19). Since the Jews had no ability to obey, why did God give them the Law in the first place. command the Israelites to keep what they could not obey, and even worse punish them severely for their disobedience?

Joshua said that because of their practices in the following Verse but in Verse 21 they said they would serve God. So they vowed to stop doing what they were doing.

LOL you always are presenting only half of the story.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Since the Jews had no ability to obey, why did God give them the Law in the first place.

So is this to prove the fact that since God is not unreasonable, they all had the capacity to obey the Law, but failed to do so? "The commandments of God are not grievous".

 

[Rufus]

Joshua said that because of their practices in the following Verse but in Verse 21 they said they would serve God. So they vowed to stop doing what they were doing.

LOL you always are presenting only half of the story.

But they didn't keep the law! The Isrelites broke God's covenant three times over! You're a messianic Jew and don't know this?

And have you forgotten what God himself spoke through Moses when foretold their disobedience?

Deut 31:15-22
15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. 16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath." 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
NIV


So, do we have two serious errors in the bible? Joshua and Moses each would have made a prediction that did not come to past? And you're okay with that, too? You free willers will go to any lengths to defend your false gospel, won't you?

 

[Rufus]

So is this to prove the fact that since God is not unreasonable, they all had the capacity to obey the Law, but failed to do so? "The commandments of God are not grievous".

You don't read too swell. Joshua said the the Israelites would NOT BE ABLE to keep the law. Or do you think Joshua had it all wrong?

 

[Evmur]

Did you not choose to respond to this post?

What Adam received as a human being, all human beings receive. And the Bible is full of confirmations that men chose either evil or good. If there was no ability to choose, why would the Gospel even exist? Kindly give that some serious thought.

Before I logged on I had strawberry ice cream, this does not prove or disprove I have freewill. It's just very hot in England just now and I have strawberry ice cream in the fridge and at heart I'm just a kid.

You could put this on a much higher plane and say do we as humans need to communicate, dare I say even fellowship? as Christians do we not need to communicate and fellowship. It is built into our natures, predestiny works that way.

Whether I chose to respond is not the issue but whether as a Christian I need fellowship.

Similarly a man resist a certain temptation to sin, I have never been tempted to steal, ever. But still I am a sinner, I have freedom to not steal but not freedom to not sin. Why? because I am in bondage to sin [before I am saved] All the freewill in the world will not prevent me from sinning.

We are bound to die

Dying is not just a matter of turning our toes up and croaking, that is just the point of death.

Death is how we live our whole lives, we must eat, we must be clothed, we must have shelter. If we don't have these things we die. In order for these things we must have money, we must have a job. Better remember to wind the clock up. You see? it's our whole life. We are BOUND, in bondage says Paul, slaves to sin because sin is the cause of all these things.

Are you SURE you have freewill? I am sure that we don't.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

But they didn't keep the law! The Isrelites broke God's covenant three times over! You're a messianic Jew and don't know this?

And have you forgotten what God himself spoke through Moses when foretold their disobedience?

Deut 31:15-22
15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. 16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath." 22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
NIV


So, do we have two serious errors in the bible? Joshua and Moses each would have made a prediction that did not come to past? And you're okay with that, too? You free willers will go to any lengths to defend your false gospel, won't you?

Everyone breaks the Law and that is the point of why we need Jesus.

But if you would continue reading they made a decree to follow the Lord and that is what God wanted most. How many times do you sin daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and still are a follower of God?

This is why David and the Prophets spoke about Mercy as much as they did.

 

[Rufus]

Everyone breaks the Law and that is the point of why we need Jesus.

But if you would continue reading they made a decree to follow the Lord and that is what God wanted most. How many times do you sin daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and still are a follower of God?

This is why David and the Prophets spoke about Mercy as much as they did.

Oh really? That's what God wanted the most: A whole slew of empty, shallow promises!? Do you have any idea how often the Israelites "decreed" to God that they would obey him!? Let's start way back here before the Law was even given:

Ex 19:7-8
7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.
NIV

And you don't know that God has no regard for those who make empty promises -- who honor him with their lips, yet their hearts are far removed from Him!

Matt 15:8
8 "'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
NIV

And,

Ezek 33:30-32
30 "As for you, son of man, your countrymen are talking together about you by the walls and at the doors of the houses, saying to each other, 'Come and hear the message that has come from the LORD.' 31 My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. 32 Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.
NIV

And,

Jer 12:2
2 You have planted them, and they have taken root;
they grow and bear fruit.
You are always on their lips
but far from their hearts.
NIV

You must think God is just like wicked men who desires to be praised by the lips of men but cares not a whit what is in their hearts!

1 Sam 16:7
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance , but the LORD looks at the heart."
NIV

 

[Nehemiah6]

You don't read too swell. Joshua said the the Israelites would NOT BE ABLE to keep the law. Or do you think Joshua had it all wrong?

Because THEY CHOSE NOT T DO SO. Not because they simp;y could not do so. When Ezra and Nehemiah came to Jerusalem and Judea, they had to compel the sinning Jews to give up their foreign wives. But Ezra and Nehemiah CHOSE TO obey the Law.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Oh really? That's what God wanted the most: A whole slew of empty, shallow promises!? Do you have any idea how often the Israelites "decreed" to God that they would obey him!? Let's start way back here before the Law was even given:

Ex 19:7-8
7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.
NIV

And you don't know that God has no regard for those who make empty promises -- who honor him with their lips, yet their hearts are far removed from Him!

Matt 15:8
8 "'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
NIV

And,

Ezek 33:30-32
30 "As for you, son of man, your countrymen are talking together about you by the walls and at the doors of the houses, saying to each other, 'Come and hear the message that has come from the LORD.' 31 My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain. 32 Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.
NIV

And,

Jer 12:2
2 You have planted them, and they have taken root;
they grow and bear fruit.
You are always on their lips
but far from their hearts.
NIV

You must think God is just like wicked men who desires to be praised by the lips of men but cares not a whit what is in their hearts!

1 Sam 16:7
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance , but the LORD looks at the heart."
NIV

24 And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

25 And Joshua made a covenant with the people on that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a great stone, and set it up there under the oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.

27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be among us as a witness; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spoke unto us: it shall be therefore as a witness against you, that ye may not deny your God.

 

[JohnDB]

Everyone breaks the Law and that is the point of why we need Jesus.

Just to add a point of theology here and not really disagreeing with this.

This is better said as:
No one is good enough and in fact they have broken the Law....that's why we need Jesus.

Even following the Law perfectly is insufficient. You have to be good enough....AKA holy, holy, holy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Even following the Law perfectly is insufficient. You have to be good enough....AKA holy, holy, holy.

"The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". In the OT the saints were justified by grace through faith (Hebrews 11) not by observing the Law. At the same time, the Law of Moses could not be disregarded and was to be obeyed. Now the Law (the Ten Commandments) is written in hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit, and is within the Law of Christ. But to claim that no one had the capacity to obey the Law is nonsense. And Total Depravity is also nonsense.

 

[Magenta]

Just to add a point of theology here and not really disagreeing with this.

This is better said as:
No one is good enough and in fact they have broken the Law....that's why we need Jesus.

Even following the Law perfectly is insufficient. You have to be good enough....AKA holy, holy, holy.

And also born again. Even if we could follow the law perfectly, would not being born again still be a
requirement? So all this do-this, do-that talk is extraneous to that point. The natural man will perish.
And we are explicitly told that the mind of the flesh cannot submit to God's law. So there is that...

Romans 8:6-7

 

[Rufus]

Because THEY CHOSE NOT T DO SO. Not because they simp;y could not do so. When Ezra and Nehemiah came to Jerusalem and Judea, they had to compel the sinning Jews to give up their foreign wives. But Ezra and Nehemiah CHOSE TO obey the Law.

The Jews were not able to keep the Law precisely because they had no heart for God. The mind set on the flesh (sin nature) is hostile toward God and and does not submit to the God's law because it CANNOT (Rom 8:7).

Don't you know: You cannot get blood out of a stone!?

 

[Rufus]

"The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". In the OT the saints were justified by grace through faith (Hebrews 11) not by observing the Law. At the same time, the Law of Moses could not be disregarded and was to be obeyed. Now the Law (the Ten Commandments) is written in hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit, and is within the Law of Christ. But to claim that no one had the capacity to obey the Law is nonsense. And Total Depravity is also nonsense.

Give one biblical example of any mere mortal perfectly obeying God's law. Chapter and verse, please. Which man or woman in the bible was sinless? And while you're searching in vain for that proof, ponder these verses:

1Ki 8:46a
46 "When they sin against Thee (for there is no man who does not sin)…
NAS

And,

Eccl 7:20
20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
NASB

Therefore, Man cannot not sin!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Give one biblical example of any mere mortal perfectly obeying God's law.

That was not the point. the point was the capability of obeying the Law. And here is just one example where Josiah obeyed the Law perfectly:

2 KINGS 22,23: KING JOSIAH IS YOUR EXAMPLE
1 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.
2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left...
13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us...

18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place...

23:3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

Which means that you will now have to seriously REVISE your theology. Let's hope you do that instead of doubling down in error.

 

[PaulThomson]

1 Sam 2:22-25
22 Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 23 So he said to them, "Why do you do such things? I hear from all the people about these wicked deeds of yours. 24 No, my sons; it is not a good report that I hear spreading among the LORD's people. 25 If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.
NIV


It seems to me that this passage is saying that God closed the door on Eli's two sons, so that there was no chance any longer for them to repent, which means they continued to sin until God took them both the same day (2:34), whenever that was. Was God unjust for not making it possible for them to repent in which case they would have listened to their father's rebuke; or was God just in giving them over to their own evil pursuits?

The word translated "because by the NIV in verse 25 is KiY. It is a primitive particle (the full form of the prepositional prefix) indicating causal relations of all kinds, antecedent or consequent; by implication very widely used as a relative conjunction or adverb...

It is used in Genesis 1:4, "And God saw the light, that (KiY) it was good..."
And in Gen. 1:10, 12, 18, 21 "And God saw that (KiY it was good... "
And in Gen. 3:5 "For God knows that (KiY) in the day you eat of it , then yopur eyes will be opened..."

Is it not possible that the author of 1 Sam 2:25 meant KiY to be understood in this way?

24 No, my sons; it is not a good report that I hear spreading among the LORD's people. 25 If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, that the LORD wanted (HaPeTs: Qal perfect) to slay them (La-HaMiY-TeM: Hiphil infinitive construct).

In other words, it is not saying that God made them not listen so that He would be justified in killing them. But that they refused to listen to their father's warning that God wanted to kill them and who could intercede for them against God to avert their slaughter, if they continued to sin against Him. Had they responded like Hezekiah did to the decree that He was going to die, maybe like he did with Hezekiah, God may have relented and given them more years.

 

[awelight]

"The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". In the OT the saints were justified by grace through faith (Hebrews 11) not by observing the Law. At the same time, the Law of Moses could not be disregarded and was to be obeyed. Now the Law (the Ten Commandments) is written in hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit, and is within the Law of Christ. But to claim that no one had the capacity to obey the Law is nonsense. And Total Depravity is also nonsense.

Why do you kick so hard against the clear teachings of the Scriptures?

The Moral Law of God shows His Holy character within it. A righteousness above our own capability. The Law does not save. It made clear why we all should be condemned. No one can keep it - saved or unsaved. Even the smallest failure or a little slipup on our part and we are condemned by it. God does not judge on a curve.

How could one keep the Law, when the Bible clearly states: There is none righteous, no, not one: (Rom. 3:10). Only through and being in Jesus Christ do believers keep the Law.

The Ten Commandments, are a great guide of moral character for each believer to strive for; however, it's statutes cannot be kept perfectly.

By the way, your example of 2Kings 22:2 - Has nothing to do with keeping the Law. It states that Josiah walked in all of the ways of his father --- Not all of the ways of the Lord and we know that David sinned on many occasions, so he did not always keep the Law either. Keeping or walking in the ways of his father meant that Josiah did not waiver in his belief and worship of the one true God. He did not pursue other gods or their ways. Thus, it has nothing to do with Law keeping but staying on the proper path.

Also, Total depravity - a not so good terminology - should be called total spiritual depravity or better yet, total spiritual inability. You are incorrect when you say that all men have an ability to understand and answer the general call of the Gospel. This directly contradicts what our Lord said and you know that.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As I stated in an earlier post - There it is in black and white. "No man can come" or "No man is able to come" EXCEPT or UNLESS the Father "draw him" or "enables him". Both of the Greek words used for "can come" and "draw him" are movement words. "Can come" means that one is unable to move in that direction and "draw him" means that one now has the ability to draw towards the object. This speaks of the Holy Spirits work in the new birth.

The meaning and point that our Lord was making could not be clearer. If I am wrong... then show me the proper interpretation of this verse and I will consider it but please don't waste my time trying to contradict it by some other method.

 

[rogerg]

and is within the Law of Christ

In which verse(s) do you find this stated?