Does church mean a lot to you?

[umzza]

Church has never been very important to me. I never felt that much about it. I never really cared about what was said or the people there or anything. I met someone a long time ago though who was really attached to their church and how things were with their church. Is that normal?

 

[Demi777]

If u find a good church u get attached. I love my church loads.

 

[Hamilton]

Church has never been very important to me. I never felt that much about it. I never really cared about what was said or the people there or anything. I met someone a long time ago though who was really attached to their church and how things were with their church. Is that normal?

Some experienced authors say that people tend to go to different types of churches for different purposes:

Pastoral church: is like an emotional / spiritual hospital. Hurts from the past and traumas are dealt with, the person's self concept and esteem, is worked on, a wholistic healing approach may be taken. The outcome wanted is a healthy sheep, that can experience God's love in many areas, to better worship God.

Teaching oriented church: some groups are heavy into neat Bible study methods, neat preaching and teaching on Bible topics useful for Christian growth: holiness, stewardship, forgiveness, lay ministry you name it.

Koinonia type church (fellowship): some see this as a club type church, but is much more than that. Significant relations of friendship, collaboration and for ministry happen here, persons care about each other, they take care of affiliation and belonging needs here.
Problem is that at times are perceived as elitists, and self centered (not always an accurate perception). Becoming one of the brothers / sisters may take time and effort depending on the culture.

According to the author the one that is more aligned with the true purpose of the Church is:

The evangelistic / mission oriented church: persons supposedly are healed, equipped, trained, taught, and the like to get involved in some form of ministry in support of or for missions / outreach and evangelism. Theoretically is the one kind that requires more maturity of the members that are expected to get involved.

Then there is another study that say that many times people go to church according to their social status.

High class socioeconomic groups usually go to certain denominations, and so on middle class, working class, all the way to poor class.

Interests and type of culture seems to be a factor for such choice.

One of the characteristics of the NT churches was that all kind of socioeconomic status had fellowship side by side. There was help available, and a common spirit united them. It seems that with time this tended to change a bit.

Culture is experienced in different ways in different types of church, and many times sheep may feel uncomfortable in church, and are not aware why, so the following may give a clue:

Would you go to a church that empowers you or exploits you? ( regardless of other variables)



Then, would you go to a church that produces outreach disciples or church members? If you believe the Bible is an authority for belief and conduct, then you should seek for a church that trains to do or support the great commission.



Many times this topics are not discussed because people do not analyze to check if what they do and where they go matches the expected fruit of them as per the Bible.

Different angle for further research, reflection and comment.

A church that does what should: empower others for outreach discipleship, should be very attractive to real Christians.

 

[p_rehbein]

Church has never been very important to me. I never felt that much about it. I never really cared about what was said or the people there or anything. I met someone a long time ago though who was really attached to their church and how things were with their church. Is that normal?

I'm a wee bit confused...........

Last Sunday morning, you started a Thread Titled Jealousy.........in the OP you said:

There's someone I am jealous of. They get attention and love from people I want attention from and to talk to. They are beautiful and everything and I am not and I think the people of a church I want to go to and be a part of love this person more than they would ever love me. I feel jealous and angry. I think if I make myself better looking they might love me more like they seem to love this person. I want the love of these people so badly but idk how to get it.

Now you are saying that Church has never been important to you?

 

[Hevosmies]

High class socioeconomic groups usually go to certain denominations, and so on middle class, working class, all the way to poor class.

I see this definately.

There was a study done in America that many of the poorest population gravitated towards prosperity gospel and experience based worship. And its no wonder why, when you are poor and in debt, you want to get out of it. And want to experience God.
Ironically, the only people who end up getting rich are the preachers lol.

 

[Hamilton]

I see this definately.

There was a study done in America that many of the poorest population gravitated towards prosperity gospel and experience based worship. And its no wonder why, when you are poor and in debt, you want to get out of it. And want to experience God.
Ironically, the only people who end up getting rich are the preachers lol.

Yes, but to be fair, those same persons in the prosperity gospel, when prospered, are very active in ministry helping in thankfulness for what God did for them.

In most fake ones yes the preacher plays them, but there are some others, that the people really change their lives around, and then become true ambassadors of the Kingdom, trying to help.

To me the biblical base of prosperity gospel is not that out of whack. Think of the following:

God is the legit owner of all that there is because He is the creator of all.

The devil created nothing, he is a created being, that what he's got, got it by stealing, killing, lying, destroying, etc.

The adopted children of God are the true heirs of all that is God's in this part of His huge reign.

Eventually all will be given to them, because God will give it all to Jesus and He will share.

For some with faith, this redistribution happens earlier, because for those that have faith, they understand that nothing is impossible for God.

 

[p_rehbein]

I see this definately.

There was a study done in America that many of the poorest population gravitated towards prosperity gospel and experience based worship. And its no wonder why, when you are poor and in debt, you want to get out of it. And want to experience God.
Ironically, the only people who end up getting rich are the preachers lol.

Prosperity preaching Preachers ............. yes .............. however, the majority of men and women who have dedicated their lives to answer Gods call to go into the Ministry never realize great wealth....... in my experience and research.

God bless them who faithfully obey their calling

 

[Hamilton]

Prosperity preaching Preachers ............. yes .............. however, the majority of men and women who have dedicated their lives to answer Gods call to go into the Ministry never realize great wealth....... in my experience and research.

God bless them who faithfully obey their calling

Not sure about this, Wesley made a great amount of money, he sold some tracts chap and many commoners bought them. He was a very thrifty person, and I think he used the money for good causes.

Then there was the case of a Healing revival preacher in the 50's who received millions in donations, and in turn he gave them to the Red Cross.

He was then in trouble with the IRS because he did not pay taxes on the donations he did not ask for, and that he gave to the Red Cross... strange case.

There was a pentecostal man in Argentina, he was a very successful businessman before converting, then he had a huge ministry after converting, he donated / used most of his money for Kingdom purposes, I think his thinking was of making riches in heaven.

But you are right, many times good servants of God, end up in a very austere elder situation due to lack of funds. A very sad situation.
They will probably get the best houses in heaven, for they were good servants here. Only God knows.

 

[dcontroversal]

Church has never been very important to me. I never felt that much about it. I never really cared about what was said or the people there or anything. I met someone a long time ago though who was really attached to their church and how things were with their church. Is that normal?

Ummmm...Jesus loved it enough to give up his life for it......

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

[Angela53510]

@Hamilton - loved your first post, the information and the lists. Awesome!
Can't handle anyone who says Prosperity gospel has any Biblical Foundation. I've discussed this ad nauseam, exegeted the texts, and it is not there. Just some sad portions of Scripture pulled out of context.

Lots of non-Christians are rich. Some people are better at making and saving money than others, or got lucky breaks. Doesn't mean God is blessing them. Jesus had no place to lay is head. Are we better than him?

Kind of ironical. A member is bragging about how being homeless makes you closer to God, and here, someone is saying virtually the opposite! Welcome to the Forum, I haven't said it before.

@umzza - your depression and attachment issues make it hard to see the value in church. I am praying for you. A good church is such a blessing! So glad I have found one.

 

[p_rehbein]

Not sure about this, Wesley made a great amount of money, he sold some tracts chap and many commoners bought them. He was a very thrifty person, and I think he used the money for good causes.

That's three examples out of thousands and thousands of people who have served God all their lives in the Ministry............... I said "the majority," not ALL............just saying.......

Some very good Preachers/Pastors earn a good living because their Congregations can afford to give them that good living, and that's fine with me. The majority of them earn every penny.

 

[Blik]

God wants me in His church every Sabbath, but I have yet to find a church that is only of God and not of the doctrines of their denomination. The bible studies are like kindergarten.

The love shown there doesn't seem to follow God's ways of each person loved and accepted, but more how people without God react to each other.

I try to help, but I feel overpowered by the masses.

 

[Hamilton]

@Hamilton - loved your first post, the information and the lists. Awesome!
Can't handle anyone who says Prosperity gospel has any Biblical Foundation. I've discussed this ad nauseam, exegeted the texts, and it is not there. Just some sad portions of Scripture pulled out of context.

Lots of non-Christians are rich. Some people are better at making and saving money than others, or got lucky breaks. Doesn't mean God is blessing them. Jesus had no place to lay is head. Are we better than him?

Kind of ironical. A member is bragging about how being homeless makes you closer to God, and here, someone is saying virtually the opposite! Welcome to the Forum, I haven't said it before.

@umzza - your depression and attachment issues make it hard to see the value in church. I am praying for you. A good church is such a blessing! So glad I have found one.

Hi Angela, thanks for sharing your mind.

The beginning problem with the issue is that there is no standard definintion of Prosperity Gospel.

If by it some mean: get close to God so you become godly rich (vs filthy r. LOL), regardless of your lawlessness, lack of fruit, lack of christian maturity, lack of faithful allegiance to God, etc. then you are 100% right.

But prosperity gospel in the sense of God send Christ so we can have an abundant life, God is the owner of all, and those that enter the New Covenant with good conscience can be blessed because God so may desire, then is more plausible.

I do see a connection of prosperity and christian responsiblity:

Deuteronomy 8:18
You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

Not trying to start polemics, a short story:

A preacher is called by his financial advisors concerning some stock options, because they foresaw some fluctuation happening, and were supposedly trying to help the preacher.

The preacher said, "I'll get back to you, I have to check with Father" [rough paraphrase]. The preacher was referring to God. He prayed to God, and somehow God communicated to Him what to do.

The preacher called the advisors and told them he was not interested in any of the options they were recommending, but asked to use some of his funds to acquire certain other stocks.

After some time, all the originally suggested options by the advisor team fell. The ones the preacher chose (based on God's input), did very well.

After the fact the original advisors called the preacher to say that they were not going to be able to offer their services to him anymore.

Some other advisor that knew of the story called the preacher to offer his services and was impressed by the situation.

In your opinion, what kind of christian living was the preacher experiencing? was he in an actual version of a prosperity gospel of sorts? (i.e. God watching for the financial interests of a loved adopted son). Is the preacher another example of a fake and heretical gospel of prosperity scheme?

There is explicit, tacit and ignored knowledge. It is dangerous to express an opinion when particular details of an ignored subject are not known or mastered.

Does God advise his elect in a protecting scheme?: Joseph of Egypt story seems to say yes, a prophet telling a widow what to do to prosper also seem so, miraculous fishing in a dire time in Jesus' time seem like the creator extends His providence in favor of His sheep, So on and so forth.

A synchronic approach to the Bible, is no guarantee that we get the message right. Diachronically taking the whole counsel of God into consideration is important too. Theological thrusts have to be explored, and narratives analyzed to see if the subjacent theological thrust is present.

Christ will live with us in a place with streets of gold. Talk about wealth. Wealth itself was never the problem according to Jesus, but the love of money, and an uncircumcised heart.

Will all believers will be rich? maybe not, do all of them have to be homeless beggars? definitively not.

Some authors have said that Biblical knowledge, Holy Spirit and money are key in the first two, and important in the latter for Kingdom work. What would the devil try to do in that respect to obstaculiza the work:

Twist the Scripture or limit the methodology used to study it so wrong conclusions could be the probable outcome.
Then blind believers about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and its key role to guide to truth.

But definitively the easier would be to restrict cash flow to the believers. Many ways are available to do that, but to have a wrong concept of wealth, and its relation to the adopted children is one of the easiest.

Different angle for further research, reflection and comment.

 

[Hamilton]

God wants me in His church every Sabbath, but I have yet to find a church that is only of God and not of the doctrines of their denomination. The bible studies are like kindergarten.

The love shown there doesn't seem to follow God's ways of each person loved and accepted, but more how people without God react to each other.

I try to help, but I feel overpowered by the masses.

From my understanding the requirements for the gentiles is different to those of Israel. Sabbath is not a requirements for gentiles but the baptism of the Holy Spirit (God's rest in the NT) is.

You may do the Sabbath OT, and that would not be wrong, but the important thing in the NT is related to Jesus' second mission: be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Covenantal requirements are multiple: if an OT persons kept the Sabbath perfectly all of his life, but did not circumcized, would he be accept to God?

So in the NT, we need to be born of the water and the Spirit John 3:5.

 

[Blik]

From my understanding the requirements for the gentiles is different to those of Israel. Sabbath is not a requirements for gentiles but the baptism of the Holy Spirit (God's rest in the NT) is.

You may do the Sabbath OT, and that would not be wrong, but the important thing in the NT is related to Jesus' second mission: be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Covenantal requirements are multiple: if an OT persons kept the Sabbath perfectly all of his life, but did not circumcized, would he be accept to God?

So in the NT, we need to be born of the water and the Spirit John 3:5.

Are you saying that if you go to church on Sunday you are not honoring a Sabbath?

In the scripture that I read, Israel is a holy nation made up of all people who listen to God and honor Him.

Gal. 6: 14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Also, I cannot believe that we have two Gods, one explained in the OT and another explained in the NT. The Bereans spoken of in Acts tested Paul against the OT, and also the judges when he was brought to trial because he had been accused of not agreeing with the OT. The Bereans said he agreed with it and so did the judges at his trial. We must be missing some meanings of his words that they understood and those of today who accuse him of writing things contrary to the God of the OT don't understand.

The biggest discrepancy concerns the Law of Moses. When I needed to clear this up in my mind I searched through history for the answer. I found that rabbi school such as Gamaliel's school got tired of gentiles joining synagogue only to deflect and take Hebrews with them. They made up 18 rules for the gentiles to follow in order to join and these rules were called Law of Moses. Just as we knew what "Iron Curtain" meant, they knew what Law of Moses meant.

 

[melita916]

I just got home from my local fellowship. I love it. I’ve been going for 1.5 yrs, so I still feel fairly new lol. As an introvert, it takes me a while to mingle, but I’m getting there.

I’m also part of the music team

 

[Hamilton]

Are you saying that if you go to church on Sunday you are not honoring a Sabbath?

In the scripture that I read, Israel is a holy nation made up of all people who listen to God and honor Him.

Gal. 6: 14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Also, I cannot believe that we have two Gods, one explained in the OT and another explained in the NT. The Bereans spoken of in Acts tested Paul against the OT, and also the judges when he was brought to trial because he had been accused of not agreeing with the OT. The Bereans said he agreed with it and so did the judges at his trial. We must be missing some meanings of his words that they understood and those of today who accuse him of writing things contrary to the God of the OT don't understand.

The biggest discrepancy concerns the Law of Moses. When I needed to clear this up in my mind I searched through history for the answer. I found that rabbi school such as Gamaliel's school got tired of gentiles joining synagogue only to deflect and take Hebrews with them. They made up 18 rules for the gentiles to follow in order to join and these rules were called Law of Moses. Just as we knew what "Iron Curtain" meant, they knew what Law of Moses meant.

Blik wrote: "Are you saying that if you go to church on Sunday you are not honoring a Sabbath?"

No, I am saying that in OT God's rest for humans was the Sabbath. In NT God's rest for humans is the baptism of the Holy Sprit.

Human toil started when the Holy Spirit left them in the garden after the transgression, it ends in the NT when the Holy Spirit is again given to us, as Jesus reconciled us to the Father.

We become the living stones part (body of Christ0 of the New Temple of God (Jesus), and as such is not a matter of days or places, but of gathering to worship God in spirit and truth in Jesus name.

Gentile Bride of Christ is different from Israel (physical), when you look at Revelation, persons from every ethnic group are there worshipping, so much that we can say that over 90% to say something is Gentile (think of the ratio of Gentiles to physical Israelites here on Earth now).

Both groups together may be spiritual Israel, but the large component is definitively gentile.

Blik wrote: "15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Exactly, the Israel of God: the new temple of God (Body of Christ),

1 Corinthians 12:13. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Is not about Saturday nor Sunday (early believers gathered Sunday so they would not be confused with Jewish believers, and to celebrate resurrection).

Is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, getting back to original state in koinonia with God. That is God's rest for us in the New Covenant.

We do not have two Gods in the Bible, but two covenants, whose ethnicity is way different and so are the requirements.

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Because of Jesus sacrifice, persons in the New Covenant have it way easier, and a much better deal. Not by works anymore, but by faith and complying with the God prescribed requirements for it is part or manifesting that faith.

Blik wrote: " I found that rabbi school such as Gamaliel's school got tired of gentiles joining synagogue only to deflect and take Hebrews with them. They made up 18 rules for the gentiles to follow in order to join and these rules were called Law of Moses. Just as we knew what "Iron Curtain" meant, they knew what Law of Moses meant."

Nice to know, thanks for sharing, but in light of the whole counsel of God, I disagree:

Galatians 3:
Justified by the Law, or Justified by Faith?


1 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as having been crucified? 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be made complete by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things for nothing—if indeed also it was for nothing? 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, 7 then understand that the ones ⌊who have faith⌋, these are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the good news in advance to Abraham: “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, the ones who have faith are blessed together with Abraham who believed. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law, because “the one who is righteous will live by faith.” 12 But the law is not from faith, but “the one who does these things will live by them.”


13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by* becoming a curse for us, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The Promise to Abraham and His Descendant


15 Brothers, I am speaking according to a human perspective. Nevertheless, when* the covenant of a man has been ratified, no one declares it invalid or adds additional provisions to it. 16 Now to Abraham and to his descendant the promises were spoken. It does not say, “and to descendants,” as concerning many, but as concerning one, “and to your descendant,” who is Christ. 17 Now I am saying this: the law, that came after four hundred and thirty years, does not revoke a covenant previously ratified by God, in order to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise, but God graciously gave it to Abraham through the promise.

Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ga 3:1–18). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Could not be clearer. We are in a new Covenant, and is all about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Sprit will not ask you to do anything against the nature and character of God, but we are now talking about the "weightier matters of the law": love of God in our hearts Romans 5:5, mercy, charity, justice, piety, etc.

We are expected to not be workers of lawlessness, so I pay attention to the decalogue, and the sermon on the mount, to check that I am growing OK in Christlikeness, but I understand that the baptism of the Holy Spirit to restore koinoia with God is where is at in the New Covenant.

kind regards.

 

[Locutus]

It just means I gotta get out of bed on saturday, err, I mean sunday

 

[Blik]

Blik wrote: "Are you saying that if you go to church on Sunday you are not honoring a Sabbath?"

No, I am saying that in OT God's rest for humans was the Sabbath. In NT God's rest for humans is the baptism of the Holy Sprit.

Human toil started when the Holy Spirit left them in the garden after the transgression, it ends in the NT when the Holy Spirit is again given to us, as Jesus reconciled us to the Father.

We become the living stones part (body of Christ0 of the New Temple of God (Jesus), and as such is not a matter of days or places, but of gathering to worship God in spirit and truth in Jesus name.

Gentile Bride of Christ is different from Israel (physical), when you look at Revelation, persons from every ethnic group are there worshipping, so much that we can say that over 90% to say something is Gentile (think of the ratio of Gentiles to physical Israelites here on Earth now).

Both groups together may be spiritual Israel, but the large component is definitively gentile.

Blik wrote: "15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Exactly, the Israel of God: the new temple of God (Body of Christ),

1 Corinthians 12:13. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Is not about Saturday nor Sunday (early believers gathered Sunday so they would not be confused with Jewish believers, and to celebrate resurrection).

Is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, getting back to original state in koinonia with God. That is God's rest for us in the New Covenant.

We do not have two Gods in the Bible, but two covenants, whose ethnicity is way different and so are the requirements.

Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Because of Jesus sacrifice, persons in the New Covenant have it way easier, and a much better deal. Not by works anymore, but by faith and complying with the God prescribed requirements for it is part or manifesting that faith.

Blik wrote: " I found that rabbi school such as Gamaliel's school got tired of gentiles joining synagogue only to deflect and take Hebrews with them. They made up 18 rules for the gentiles to follow in order to join and these rules were called Law of Moses. Just as we knew what "Iron Curtain" meant, they knew what Law of Moses meant."

Nice to know, thanks for sharing, but in light of the whole counsel of God, I disagree:

Galatians 3:
Justified by the Law, or Justified by Faith?


1 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as having been crucified? 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be made complete by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things for nothing—if indeed also it was for nothing? 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, 7 then understand that the ones ⌊who have faith⌋, these are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the good news in advance to Abraham: “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, the ones who have faith are blessed together with Abraham who believed. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law, because “the one who is righteous will live by faith.” 12 But the law is not from faith, but “the one who does these things will live by them.”


13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by* becoming a curse for us, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The Promise to Abraham and His Descendant


15 Brothers, I am speaking according to a human perspective. Nevertheless, when* the covenant of a man has been ratified, no one declares it invalid or adds additional provisions to it. 16 Now to Abraham and to his descendant the promises were spoken. It does not say, “and to descendants,” as concerning many, but as concerning one, “and to your descendant,” who is Christ. 17 Now I am saying this: the law, that came after four hundred and thirty years, does not revoke a covenant previously ratified by God, in order to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise, but God graciously gave it to Abraham through the promise.

Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ga 3:1–18). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Could not be clearer. We are in a new Covenant, and is all about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Sprit will not ask you to do anything against the nature and character of God, but we are now talking about the "weightier matters of the law": love of God in our hearts Romans 5:5, mercy, charity, justice, piety, etc.

We are expected to not be workers of lawlessness, so I pay attention to the decalogue, and the sermon on the mount, to check that I am growing OK in Christlikeness, but I understand that the baptism of the Holy Spirit to restore koinoia with God is where is at in the New Covenant.

kind regards.

You are making up a lot of what you say with your own reasoning, and we aren't to do that, we are to follow scripture.

We are told of the Holy Spirit first when the 70 elders received it for a short time as Moses was telling them of the ten commandments. What happened at Pentecost follows closely what happened then, and the date of the years matched. That is scripture about the Holy Spirit.

A covenant is not a testament. A testament is a legal document that can cancel one that comes before as in a last will and testament. A covenant is a statement of a relationship and you are speaking of God's statement of relationships with us. So an old way of God relating to us is a statement of fact, and a new way is a statement of fact. You are saying that receiving the Holy Spirit as we do in the new relationship cancelled all the old way of relating. That would cancel any blessings that God gives us, and that is not so.

No one has been able to find that God has EVER justified anyone by his deeds. God has blessed in this life by deeds but never justified. That would be saying that at one time man could make himself into a God. Man never could.

You are getting salvation and blessings mixed up, they are not the same.

Scripture must be read knowing certain facts about it. It is written by a God with definite characteristics and those characteristics never change. Every verse agrees with every other verse, for God there is no new and old. If we see differences we need to find out where we are wrong in our interpretation. Christ and what Christ did was part of the world from the beginning of our time, not starting with His physical birth. The changes that happened when Christ came physically are clearly told and we are to go by them not add or subtract from scripture. We are not to assume, but we are to listen to what is told us.

 

[Hamilton]

You are making up a lot of what you say with your own reasoning, and we aren't to do that, we are to follow scripture.

We are told of the Holy Spirit first when the 70 elders received it for a short time as Moses was telling them of the ten commandments. What happened at Pentecost follows closely what happened then, and the date of the years matched. That is scripture about the Holy Spirit.

A covenant is not a testament. A testament is a legal document that can cancel one that comes before as in a last will and testament. A covenant is a statement of a relationship and you are speaking of God's statement of relationships with us. So an old way of God relating to us is a statement of fact, and a new way is a statement of fact. You are saying that receiving the Holy Spirit as we do in the new relationship cancelled all the old way of relating. That would cancel any blessings that God gives us, and that is not so.

No one has been able to find that God has EVER justified anyone by his deeds. God has blessed in this life by deeds but never justified. That would be saying that at one time man could make himself into a God. Man never could.

You are getting salvation and blessings mixed up, they are not the same.

Scripture must be read knowing certain facts about it. It is written by a God with definite characteristics and those characteristics never change. Every verse agrees with every other verse, for God there is no new and old. If we see differences we need to find out where we are wrong in our interpretation. Christ and what Christ did was part of the world from the beginning of our time, not starting with His physical birth. The changes that happened when Christ came physically are clearly told and we are to go by them not add or subtract from scripture. We are not to assume, but we are to listen to what is told us.

From the Bible we read the problem about the gentiles, and how they are commanded to do different from Physical Israel (including not having to circumcize):


The Jerusalem Council


Acts 15:1 And some men came down from Judea and* began teaching* the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after* there was no little strife and debate by Paul and Barnabas against them, they appointed Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this issue. 3 So they were sent on their way by the church, and* passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, telling in detail the conversion of the Gentiles and bringing great joy to all the brothers. 4 And when they* arrived in Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them* to observe the law of Moses!”


6 Both the apostles and the elders assembled to deliberate concerning this matter. 7 And after* there was much debate, Peter stood up and* said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by* giving them* the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 So now why are you putting God to the test by* placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in ⌊the same⌋ way those also are.” 12 And the whole group became silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 And after they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Men and brothers, listen to me! 14 Simeon has described how God first concerned himself to take from among the Gentiles a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:


16 ‘After these things I will return


and build up again the tent of David that has fallen,


and the parts of it that had been torn down I will build up again


and will restore it,


17 so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord,


even all the Gentiles ⌊who are called by my name⌋,


says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’


19 Therefore I conclude we should not cause difficulty for those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but we should write a letter to them to abstain from the pollution of idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses has those who proclaim him in every city from ancient generations, because he* is read aloud in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”


Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 15:1–21). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Can you tell from the above that requirements for gentiles are different?