If you put enough points together you might get a number.....see, I just made a 1 laying down.
Does "Elohim" in any way prove the Trinity?
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Now here, have a sandwich:
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/52088791/bologna_bite.0.jpeg)
Yum, yum...But a bit heavy on the ham!
I like mine with (Heinz) salad cream and some lettuce!
Elohim, is Plural, "but not in the sense" it means more than one Deity.
Elohim, is Plural, because it is a WORD that is [[used]] both Singularly and Plural.
Example:
when talking about false gods, it always is in the Plural sense because there's ""many"" false gods + it can refer to Angels and people who Follow God.
but when talking about the God of Israel, Elohim, is ""ALWAYS"" used in the SINGULAR FORM. Hence, Oh Israel, GOD is ONE! [Elohim]!
The only reason Elohim was ever connected to GOD and Plural is because of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
But because the ENGLISH LANGUAGE means one way does not matter because God taught the word ELOHIM in Hebrew.
So, it only means what the Hebrew definition means, not what the English makes it to mean.
Elohim, is Plural, because it is a WORD that is [[used]] both Singularly and Plural.
Example:
when talking about false gods, it always is in the Plural sense because there's ""many"" false gods + it can refer to Angels and people who Follow God.
but when talking about the God of Israel, Elohim, is ""ALWAYS"" used in the SINGULAR FORM. Hence, Oh Israel, GOD is ONE! [Elohim]!
The only reason Elohim was ever connected to GOD and Plural is because of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
But because the ENGLISH LANGUAGE means one way does not matter because God taught the word ELOHIM in Hebrew.
So, it only means what the Hebrew definition means, not what the English makes it to mean.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
I havent read Heiser, but I will check him out.
A person cam be right on a thing or two while being a ranf heretic. Bonhoeffer was right about the psalms and about stupidity, while being a ranknheretic on christology and ontology.
I definitely would not classify Heiser as a heretic; his Christology is on point, but he missed the buck on Gen. 1:26. When you read people, you need to understand to who and to what they are objecting to. We sometimes miss that bit of context. That said, Heiser's heart is in the right place in his love to God, for Christ, and in Spirit. He just simply fluffed it on Gen. 1:26.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
I dont know him nor have i read anything he has written, so i have no opinion.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
This does not prove there is a trinity.
Adam was made in the image of God.
In the New Testament it says Adam was made in the similitude of Christ.
The image of God is the image of Christ.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This means God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He laid down the foundation of the world, and He created Adam in the image He would show up in the future which is an innocent nature in flesh.
All things were made by Him, and without the plan of God to come in the future in flesh He would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to give salvation, and to judge the angels, and people.
So the let us create man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image.
I do not believe it is referring to a trinity but a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God, God manifest in the flesh.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
This does not prove there is a trinity for it said name singular, and those are not names but titles.
God said in the Old Testament that the Jews shall know His name, and He shall speak to them.
Jesus told Philip that if he had seen Him then He has seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His words, but Father that dwells in Him does the works.
Jesus said I am come in my Father's name.
Hebrews says the Son inherited the name of the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans were all baptized in Jesus name in the book of Acts.
The Bible says all we do in word, and in deed is to be done in Jesus' name so we would not baptize Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
This does not prove there is a trinity.
The Bible says there is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, and it is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.
There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus said all power is given to Him in heaven and earth which He was speaking as the man Christ Jesus for as God He already has that power.
David said the LORD said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
Which the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and then the Son shall submit to the Father that God may be all in all.
God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power, be at His right hand, until His enemies are conquered, then the Son shall submit to the Father, stop being at the right hand, stop exercising the throne of power, that God may be all in all, for the mediator role of the man Christ Jesus is no longer needed.
The Son being at the right hand is a temporary role, and there is only one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus which He told Philip that if you have seen me then you have seen the Father.
Jesus is the only image of God we will see.
This does not prove there is a trinity.
Adam was made in the image of God.
In the New Testament it says Adam was made in the similitude of Christ.
The image of God is the image of Christ.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This means God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He laid down the foundation of the world, and He created Adam in the image He would show up in the future which is an innocent nature in flesh.
All things were made by Him, and without the plan of God to come in the future in flesh He would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to give salvation, and to judge the angels, and people.
So the let us create man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image.
I do not believe it is referring to a trinity but a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God, God manifest in the flesh.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
This does not prove there is a trinity for it said name singular, and those are not names but titles.
God said in the Old Testament that the Jews shall know His name, and He shall speak to them.
Jesus told Philip that if he had seen Him then He has seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His words, but Father that dwells in Him does the works.
Jesus said I am come in my Father's name.
Hebrews says the Son inherited the name of the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans were all baptized in Jesus name in the book of Acts.
The Bible says all we do in word, and in deed is to be done in Jesus' name so we would not baptize Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
This does not prove there is a trinity.
The Bible says there is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, and it is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.
There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus said all power is given to Him in heaven and earth which He was speaking as the man Christ Jesus for as God He already has that power.
David said the LORD said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
Which the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and then the Son shall submit to the Father that God may be all in all.
God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power, be at His right hand, until His enemies are conquered, then the Son shall submit to the Father, stop being at the right hand, stop exercising the throne of power, that God may be all in all, for the mediator role of the man Christ Jesus is no longer needed.
The Son being at the right hand is a temporary role, and there is only one throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus which He told Philip that if you have seen me then you have seen the Father.
Jesus is the only image of God we will see.
You still have two very big problems. You need to address the cohortative for "Let Us make" and the 30+ instances of it's occurence, along with the verb usage found in Col. 1:16. Until you can do that, I don't think there is much left to say. Opinion means absolutely nothing if it is not based and rooted in the language. That doesn't make you wrong, but it does demonstrate that your answer is lacking the real "umph" it needs.
No.
If the verb in the sentence is written in the singular form, then in meaning of Elohim is singular. If the verb is is written in the plural form, then the meaning of Elohim is plural. The verb in Gen 1:26 is plural, so Elohim is plural. This is why the translators (experts in Hebrew grammar) used "us" and "our" to complement the plural forms of the noun and verb.
you believe whatever, but that is not how the Hebrew defines, it's how the ENGLISH defines it.
English did not exist when the Hebrew was written.
Therefore, the English, has no bearing on the meaning whatsoever.
E
evyaniy
Guest
One thing for sure. Elohim has singular uses and plural uses throughout Scripture. When the Son is praying to the Father in the Psalms He often calls Him "My Elohim" which would be singular. In other places when He says the Father is greater than all elohim it would be plural. Your explanation makes sense.
Psalm 86:8 is an example where elohim is plural referring to other elohim.
Among the elohim there is none like unto Thee, O Adonai; neither are there any works like unto Thy works.
Psalm 86:2 is an example with the Son praying to His Father where the Elohim would be singular.
Preserve My soul; for I am holy: O Thou My Elohim, save Thy Servant that trusteth in Thee.
Most of the occurrences of Elohim H430 appear to be singular in usage.
I've never yet seen an argument about the trinity which did not boil down to the real argument folks have as to whether Jesus be God or nay.
Fact is God's triune nature is a mystery as impossible to explain in science or logic as life itself is impossible to explain in those terms. Why trouble to argue?
I'm having fun at the present showing some Jewish folks that THEY also are triune since they are body soul and spirit. Once you show them that man has an inner man which can be at war with the outer man [as in drug abuse for instance] which they will concede.
Then you have them having to admit to an at least twofold nature ... which is a great intro to the subject of the new birth.
I’d say when things are revealed in the New Testament it makes sense
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV
so you have in the beginning God , his word and his spirit
“In the beginning God created( father) the heaven and the earth. And the Spirit of God moved( spirit ) upon the face of the waters. And God said,( word ) Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:1-3
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;( he is the creator ) and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
John 1:1-3, 10, 14 KJV
The word was God in the beginning and the word became flesh and walked among us our creator but we didn’t know it. Didn’t understand it until Jesus came to make himself known the true God manifest in the understanding he gave us in the gospel
No one ever really knew God until Christ declares him to the world
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
John 1:18 KJV
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20
in Christ is the father
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?….
John 14:10 KJV
son
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
and holy ghost
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24
“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
2 Corinthians 3:17 KJV
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
1 Corinthians 3:16 KJV
The plurality references in the ot lends to understanding the revelation of the nt clearly God is one
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”
Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV
and he has made himself known but not everyone can believe it until they see it
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
John 20:28-
The plurality is to break down our gos so we simple can understand the gospel that reveals our one true God manifest in the Christ, father son and Holy Ghost in one body
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
a Jesus is where we see the father son and Holy Ghost manifest in one who is the lord our God
Both of you have no idea what you're talking about.
Stop reading the English Septuagint and read the Hebrew Psalms: 86:8
There is none like You among the gods, O Lord,
and there are no deeds like Yours.
^
David giving Praise to Yahweh!
It suggests a plurality not necessarily a trinity.
Genesis 1:26:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.
Genesis 19:24:
And Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Genesis 19:25:
and overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew upon the ground.
I've used the paradox of the wave and particle nature of light to justify the scientific validity of belief in trinity to muslims, since the energy of a beam of light acting as discrete photons and the energy of the same light beam acting as a wave are exactly the same . So all the energy is behaving as photons/particles and all the energy is behaving as a wave. But logically the same thing cannot be entirely a wave and entirely discrete particles.I've never yet seen an argument about the trinity which did not boil down to the real argument folks have as to whether Jesus be God or nay.
Fact is God's triune nature is a mystery as impossible to explain in science or logic as life itself is impossible to explain in those terms. Why trouble to argue?
I'm having fun at the present showing some Jewish folks that THEY also are triune since they are body soul and spirit. Once you show them that man has an inner man which can be at war with the outer man [as in drug abuse for instance] which they will concede.
Then you have them having to admit to an at least twofold nature ... which is a great intro to the subject of the new birth.
Both these models are scientifically true because they have been applied to and have enabled the development of functional technologies based on each those particular incompatible models.
And then there is light-as-it-actually-is before humans interpret it through our senses. A co-equal trinity. And the Bible says "God is light." And the Qur'an says, "God is gracious light." So both books use the same metaphor to describe God.
I'm having fun at the present showing some Jewish folks that THEY also are triune since they are body soul and spirit. Once you show them that man has an inner man which can be at war with the outer man [as in drug abuse for instance] which they will concede.
Then you have them having to admit to an at least twofold nature ... which is a great intro to the subject of the new birth.
yes, demonstrating that there is a physical and a non-physical aspect to existence is tge first step into the Truth - - and even human science proves this now, since the early 1900s...
one of the fundamental precepts of quantum theory is that consciousness, a non-physical property, affects physical reality.
God created the world in such a way as to demonstrate His nature to us, and the universe displays a dualistic nature