I was trying to make sense out of God loving 'no matter what'. I guess you'd have to say God loves satan and those sent to hell.
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Gr8grace
Guest
It goes deeper than condemnation. It comes down to our fallen nature which avoids and is at enmity with God, apart from an intervention and illumination from God we would remain in darkness.
One inconvenient fact in linguistics is that words do not change their meanings to fit our theology!
I agree that God does indeed love sinners. That is what motivated my paradox post. Linguistically the love and the hate must be simultaneously true.
It troubles me and my image of God as much as it does you; but we both need to approach Scripture with the intellectual integrity to let Scripture drive our theology rather than letting theology drive translation.
Now the problem with a statement we are totally depraved is it sounds good but a few points are missing.
Part of us recognises we have a need we cannot meet, the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
There is something in Jesus that draws us by the preaching of the word.
In repentance and belief we gain forgiveness and peace. Now we must be a mixture of good and bad, to be able to even relate to the idea of salvation and gain conviction of need. If we are totally evil, God would never get through.
For me the problem is a 1% failure is still failure, like poison, a drop still kills you. Look around you, love is not an alien concept to man, or morality, or good emotional health, or polite behaviour. So righteousness is an accepted goal by many though faith is not.
So with this background, total depravity does not fit, it sounds too extreme. Jesus walked this earth without sin, so it is not that impossible. Sin is not automatic in the system, it has to be relational, else Adam could not have walked with God in the garden of eden.
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Gr8grace
Guest
Eve had aleady sinned in her heart by believing the Serpents lie that led her to disobey God's Word.
Adam deliberately sinned against God's Word by disobeying it.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Do you think God does not love them?
Gods has perfect love and perfect righteousness and perfect justice does he not?
Can Gods love overrule his justice is the question.
When you punish your children. does that mean you no longer love them?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
true but adam was perfect. thus he did not need saved, or born again.
So where did his sin come from? Did God predestine him to sin, thus cause him to sin because it was his will?
Sure chastizing our children whom I love is one thing but murdering them and considering that love gives a whole new definition to love. Do you believe God is loving those He sentenced to the Lake of Fire?
Do you have Scripture for it?
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Gr8grace
Guest
Actually, The "in Him" is the predestined plan from the foundation of the world. That was the predesigned plan for believers in the Church.
The predesigned plan was, Adoption, redemption through Christs death,Grace. It is the mystery. Paul revealed it to us.
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Sirk
Guest
God set it in motion and is letting it run its course.....and had a plan to redeem it from the beginning. God didn't choose who would be saved. It's no more complicated than a celestial body being at a certain place at a certain time in history or in the future. He put the wheels in motion and the wheels went where they would go...He just provided a net for those who would choose Him over themselves and the world.
I would not say God predestined Adam to fall (infra or sublapsarian..can never get the two straight). Adam was without sin but obviously wasn't perfect otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Scripture doesn't say why he sinned. I could speculate that he would take the fall with Eve, identifying with her sinful state...sorta preview of Christ and His Church.
Yes, so chosen and predestined are all in the same link...
Romans 8:29-30 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Last time I read of wheels was in Ezekiel. You do have backup Scripture for that Sirk or are you just spinnin us?
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Gr8grace
Guest
If we look close. There is not predestination to belief in those verses. It is the predesigned plan for those who believe.
Reread v.30..predestinates..》calls...》justifies...》glorifies.
You must believe to be justified.
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Sirk
Guest
Last time I read of wheels was in Ezekiel. You do have backup Scripture for that Sirk or are you just spinnin us
Well sure I do. God is omnipotent and Omnipresent. Therefore we can deduce that when he strung together the very first strand of human dna, He knew every single person that would be born out of that first life that He created. Doesn't make sense that He schemed what offspring of Adam would choose Him. He just knew. He also knew Adam and Eve would go their own way and think that they could make better decisions for themselves than what He had ordained.
Its really just simple logic based off the fact that God knows everything from the beginning of time to the end of time and that He wants his creation to choose Him freely.