Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

[Slayer]

Before they were "brethren" Paul taught them the Gospel ... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

That is the Gospel Paul preached to the church at Corinth, they received the Gospel, they stand in the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand


And Romans 10:14 tells us How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The unbeliever must hear in order to believe and they must believe in order to call on Him.





In your Post #397, you said you "unequivocally reject [my] view of the Gospel as unbiblical heresy".

In my post #398, I submitted what I believe is the Gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What "gospel" do you preach?

I preach the Gospel which is written in my Bible, my Bible tells me that God chose to save His elect before the world was made. your gospel says that God chose to save those who had faith in their faith and believed what their intelligence tells them is true.

So your gospel preaches that a man is saved by using his intelligence to work out that the gospel is a good offer, he comes to the conclusion that he will allow Jesus to take all of his filthy sins and his eternal torment in hell sentence and swap it for eternal paradise in heaven.

So your gospel sounds like a great deal, like who wouldn't swap eternity in hell with eternal paradise and all of his sins forgiven and receive a perfect sinless eternal body in exchange for his corrupt sick body. I mean it's ludicrous for you to suggest that the worlds most intelligent people choose to go to hell to suffer eternal torment in fire.


Your gospel is highly offensive to all of the top scientists in the world, they say you are an absolute fool to take such a ridiculous offer. I mean they all reckon it's much smarter to spend eternity burning in hell than eternal paradise, how foolish are you to believe thjat paradise is better. Any fool can tell you that burning g is much more fun.

Your gospel is an insult to all intelligent people, your are asking them to exchange their eternal damnation for paradise. Come on man, get real who in their right m ind would accept such a ridiculous offer.

I have no words to express our view of your gospel, we believe God when He said that the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. You have twisted it around to say that those who believe what God said about salvation are fools.

God said He is the one who decides who will enter His heaven, you say it comes down to one's IQ level, those with a high enough IQ will figure out that the offer Jesus made is a good deal and those poor bastards with a low IQ won't be able to crack the code.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Which is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Because through the natural, physical realm a person can ascertain God's eternal power and Godhead.

So rather than seek after the Creator when they observe the natural, physical realm which reveals God's eternal power and Godhead, they they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations (Rom 1:21) and came up with "the big bang theory, evolution, etc".





What I showed you from Rom 1 is that the natural, physical realm points to the Creator.

You are the one who keeps insisting that the natural, physical realm of Rom 1:20-21 is the same as the spiritual matters of 1 Cor 2:14.

The natural, physical realm can and does reveal God as Creator of the universe and all that is therein. You continue to close your eyes to this very clearly stated truth in Rom 1.

I would suggest that you go ask a person who does not believe that there is a God what he thinks of Romans 1, and if he sees God in the natural, physical realm. Let me know what his answer is!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have already explained to you that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 means "In particular, to become acquainted with, to know, is employed in the N. T. of the knowledge of God and Christ and of the things relating to them or proceeding from them; a. τόν Θεόν, the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles: Ro. i. 21 ; ... ". That definition is straight from your beloved Thayer's.

Replacing "ascertain" with "become acquainted with" does not change the fact that Rom 1:21 states the natural man is able to "become acquainted" with His eternal power and Godhead through observation of the natural, physical realm.

You are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness concerning this issue and you are telling God that He cannot allow mankind to reject Him because you won't allow it.




Argue about that with God. He's the One Who made the statement that natural man can and does suppress the truth in unrighteousness:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (Greek katechō - to restrain, hinder, suppress) the truth in unrighteousness.

Notice it's not God Who's suppressing the truth ... it is the ungodly and unrighteous men who suppress the truth.

But that doesn't fit your theory on the sovereignty of God.

God can allow men to reject Him and still remain sovereign.

Not if God wants to save all mankind. None can stay his hand (Dan 4:35).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, when we "harmonize" 1 John 2:2 with Rom 1:18, we find that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), reject the atonement.

When we understand 1 John 2:2 in light of Rom 1:18, we see that it is the unbeliever who rejects Christ's atonement.

Under your doctrine, God rejects Christ's atonement for certain people but accepts Christ's atonement for others.

Under your doctrine, Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.





Right ... so those who glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened were really just "disobedient" children of God?

Your doctrine is completely without merit and it gets worse if you continue reading through to the end of Rom 1.

How do you "harmonize" that those spoken of from Rom 1:21 - 31 were really just "disobedient" children of God?

I have pointed out many scriptures that affirm that God does accomplish all of his will. If it is God's will that all mankind be saved eternally, which you believe, and none can stay his hand (Dan 4:35), then why are not all mankind going to heaven?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I preach the Gospel which is written in my Bible, my Bible tells me that God chose to save His elect before the world was made. your gospel says that God chose to save those who had faith in their faith and believed what their intelligence tells them is true.

So your gospel preaches that a man is saved by using his intelligence to work out that the gospel is a good offer, he comes to the conclusion that he will allow Jesus to take all of his filthy sins and his eternal torment in hell sentence and swap it for eternal paradise in heaven.

Again, the gospel I preach is straight from Scripture ... that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor 15:3-4).

You preach "God chose to save His elect before the world was made".

I will stick with what is written in Scripture concerning the Gospel.

Your gospel is an insult to all intelligent people, your are asking them to exchange their eternal damnation for paradise. Come on man, get real who in their right m ind would accept such a ridiculous offer.

Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Rom 1:18.

I have no words to express our view of your gospel,

That is because you reject the Gospel ... just as Rom 1:18 tells me those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness will do.

And that is not my problem. That is your problem. And God may still get through to your hardened heart in your lifetime. As for me, I will continue to preach the gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to all with whom I come in contact.

we believe God when He said that the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. You have twisted it around to say that those who believe what God said about salvation are fools.

God said He is the one who decides who will enter His heaven, you say it comes down to one's IQ level, those with a high enough IQ will figure out that the offer Jesus made is a good deal and those poor bastards with a low IQ won't be able to crack the code.

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated that "those who believe what God said about salvation are fools" and that "those with a high enough IQ will figure out that the offer Jesus made is a good deal and those poor bastards with a low IQ won't be able to crack the code".

You can go through every post I have ever submitted and you will not find a post which states what you claim I have stated.

You have mis-stated what I have said which is dishonest on your part.

You do the same with God and God's Word and that is shameful. That you can read posts submitted by me and come to the conclusion you have come to explains much about your misinterpretation of Scripture.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I would suggest that you go ask a person who does not believe that there is a God what he thinks of Romans 1, and if he sees God in the natural, physical realm. Let me know what his answer is!

When I come across a person "who does not believe there is a God", I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to him/her (that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures - 1 Cor 15:3-4).

Not if God wants to save all mankind. None can stay his hand (Dan 4:35).

You have been shown your misinterpretation of Dan 4:35:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-love-all-mankind.178323/page-9#post-3671457

I have pointed out many scriptures that affirm that God does accomplish all of his will. If it is God's will that all mankind be saved eternally, which you believe

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 2:3-4 clearly states that it is the desire of God that all men be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That "all" are not saved and that "all" do not come unto the knowledge of the truth does not mean it is not God's desire for all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Beginning with Adam and Eve, God has allowed mankind to reject what is God's will and God continues to allow mankind to reject.

When God told Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, what was God's will?

Was it God's will that Adam eat?

Or was it God's will that Adam not eat?

then why are not all mankind going to heaven?

Because God allows mankind to reject Him. Mankind rejects God when the truth of God's Word is presented and then mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness just as Rom 1:18 tells us.

 

[Slayer]

Again, the gospel I preach is straight from Scripture ... that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Cor 15:3-4).

You preach "God chose to save His elect before the world was made".

I will stick with what is written in Scripture concerning the Gospel.





Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Rom 1:18.





That is because you reject the Gospel ... just as Rom 1:18 tells me those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness will do.

And that is not my problem. That is your problem. And God may still get through to your hardened heart in your lifetime. As for me, I will continue to preach the gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to all with whom I come in contact.





Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated that "those who believe what God said about salvation are fools" and that "those with a high enough IQ will figure out that the offer Jesus made is a good deal and those poor bastards with a low IQ won't be able to crack the code".

You can go through every post I have ever submitted and you will not find a post which states what you claim I have stated.

You have mis-stated what I have said which is dishonest on your part.

You do the same with God and God's Word and that is shameful. That you can read posts submitted by me and come to the conclusion you have come to explains much about your misinterpretation of Scripture.

Well you need to explain what you believe, why do some suppress the truth in unrighteousness and others believe. Is it IQ or just the luck of the draw, you have no answer why perfectly intelligent people choose to burn in hell and reject the free offer of eternal paradise. You haven't provided any answer

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well you need to explain what you believe, why do some suppress the truth in unrighteousness and others believe. Is it IQ or just the luck of the draw, you have no answer why perfectly intelligent people choose to burn in hell and reject the free offer of eternal paradise. You haven't provided any answer

I have provided the answer. Just because you don't like the answer does not mean the answer has not been provided.

Those who reject the truth of God's Word suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as Rom 1:18 tells us.

Just as you reject that truth even though it has been explained to you numerous times over the pages of this thread. You suppress the truth in unrighteousness concerning this issue just as those described in Rom 1:18.

 

[Slayer]

I have provided the answer. Just because you don't like the answer does not mean the answer has not been provided.

Those who reject the truth of God's Word suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as Rom 1:18 tells us.

Just as you reject that truth even though it has been explained to you numerous times over the pages of this thread. You suppress the truth in unrighteousness concerning this issue just as those described in Rom 1:18.

No, don't dance around the question and answer me, why perfectly intelligent people choose to exchange the free offer of eternal paradise for eternal torment in hell. It just doesn't add up, we are talking about the worlds most intelligent people here.

Romans 1:18 doesn't answer the question, there has to be more to it. I know the answer and you know it as well but you choose to suppress the truth of the answer in unrighteousness

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No, don't dance around the question and answer me, why perfectly intelligent people choose to exchange the free offer of eternal paradise for eternal torment in hell. It just doesn't add up, we are talking about the worlds most intelligent people here.

Since you do not believe me, read Romans 1:18-32. This section of Scripture gives you the answer to your question.

That you choose to not believe what is clearly written in Scripture because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness is something you need to bring to the Father and allow Him to reveal His truth to your heart.


Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Slayer]

Since you do not believe me, read Romans 1:18-32. This section of Scripture gives you the answer to your question.

That you choose to not believe what is clearly written in Scripture because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness is something you need to bring to the Father and allow Him to reveal His truth to your heart.


Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

According to you, only those with a high enough IQ will be able to figure out that eternal paradise is better than eternal torment in hell fire. What about all those perfectly intelligent people who hold to the fact that burning in hell is much more fun and they hold to their position, no matter how much evidence you show them.

You can't give me an answer why the smartest people in the world choose to reject the free offer of paradise and embrace the better offer of burning in hell. I want you to give me an answer why the world top minds choose to burn, you say they hold the truth in unrighteousness. I'm asking why the smartest people choose that and the dumbest choose paradise????

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "and to those called [G2822 - kletois/ klétos] -- both Jews and Greeks -- Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1Cor1:24


[see also G2822 in Matt22:14 in the context of vv.1-14; ...and in Rom8:28 in that distinct context]


Col2:2-3nasb also, "Christ Himself"


(note that your reference says, "not many wise according to flesh..." not "not ANY wise")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Even Paul himself was not known as an ignorant (unlearned) person [contrast to Acts 4:13]:

"24 Now of him saying these things in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, “You are insane, Paul! The great learning turns you to insanity!” " Acts 26:24

 

[ForestGreenCook]

When I come across a person "who does not believe there is a God", I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to him/her (that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures - 1 Cor 15:3-4).





You have been shown your misinterpretation of Dan 4:35:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-love-all-mankind.178323/page-9#post-3671457





1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 2:3-4 clearly states that it is the desire of God that all men be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That "all" are not saved and that "all" do not come unto the knowledge of the truth does not mean it is not God's desire for all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Beginning with Adam and Eve, God has allowed mankind to reject what is God's will and God continues to allow mankind to reject.

When God told Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, what was God's will?

Was it God's will that Adam eat?

Or was it God's will that Adam not eat?





Because God allows mankind to reject Him. Mankind rejects God when the truth of God's Word is presented and then mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness just as Rom 1:18 tells us.

As I have stated before, that God has given mankind the free will to choose as he pleases in the matter of choosing how he wants to live his life here on earth, but man's eternal salvation is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man. In reference to 1 Tim 2-4, There is a deliverance from the lack of knowledge when the Holy Spirit reveals the understanding of the scriptures. Greek definition of "salvation" is "a deliverance". The deliverance referred to in this scripture is not an eternal deliverance, but a deliverance we receive here on this earth. It is not God's will that we disobey him, but he has given us the freedom to do so, in matters of our lives here on earth, but it is God's choice in the matter of our eternal deliverance. Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to deliverance we receive right here on earth. Scriptures using the words; repent, confess, believe, accept etc. are instructions of God to his disobedient children, and not to the natural man, void of the Spirit.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm asking why the smartest people choose that and the dumbest choose paradise????

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is not God's will that we disobey him, but he has given us the freedom to do so

Well, at least you've seen fit to finally acknowledge that God allows mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This does not affect God's sovereignty in the least.

God's choice in the matter of our eternal deliverance

God's "choice in the matter of our eternal deliverance" relates to those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This does not affect God's sovereignty in the least.

 

[Slayer]

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So, you're admitting that those who profess to be wise are fools and those who appear to be fools in the worlds eyes are actually wise. Do you admit that choosing to believe the Gospel has nothing to do with how smart a person is, and do you admit that the worlds smartest people reject the gospel as foolishness?

I'm trying to usher you into a corner where you will have to admit that salvation is not by how intelligent you are and that it's a gift that God gives to His chosen or the dirty word the "elect" of God.

Everyone who studies the scripture sincerely and allows the Bible to interpret itself, will have to concede that predestination and election are Biblically correct. I won't let you get away with picking and choosing the scriptures which seem to support your false view at the expense of hundreds of other verses which expose your false view.

 

[Slayer]

^ "and to those called [G2822 - kletois/ klétos] -- both Jews and Greeks -- Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1Cor1:24


[see also G2822 in Matt22:14 in the context of vv.1-14; ...and in Rom8:28 in that distinct context]


Col2:2-3nasb also, "Christ Himself"


(note that your reference says, "not many wise according to flesh..." not "not ANY wise")

OK, you got me there. There may be one or two intelligent people in heaven, but most will be dummies according to the world.

 

[rstrats]

reneweddaybyday,
re: "That you choose to not believe what is clearly written in Scripture..."


Are you suggesting that a person has the ability to consciously choose to believe things?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, you're admitting that those who profess to be wise are fools

I answered the question you asked:

I'm asking why the smartest people choose that