Does God Love Sinners?

[eternally-gratefull]

Please do not be deliberately obtuse. Of course all were sinners before Christ apprehended them. NON ELECT sinners will never choose to stop sinning. Please give just one scripture that says they will. Romans 3:9-18 says they will not.

lol.. Thats funny. Scripture says even the elect will not stop sinning until they are glorified, so whats your point?

How are people elect? Scripture says through foreknowledge, knowledge of what? What did God know about me that caused him to elect me? How good I was? What type of person I would be? what???

 

[Anonimous]

lol.. Thats funny. Scripture says even the elect will not stop sinning until they are glorified, so whats your point?

How are people elect? Scripture says through foreknowledge, knowledge of what? What did God know about me that caused him to elect me? How good I was? What type of person I would be? what???

If He didn't...we'd all be in trouble!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

We do have a choice. . . the choice is set before us. . .

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. . . TO BELIEVE. . . He that believeth on him is not condemned. . .(those that CHOOSE to believe)

BUT he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(those that CHOOSE NOT to believe)

That's two groups of peoples. . .those that choose to believe and those that don't . . . .a choice had to be made.

Once that choice is made we become part of the chosen, predestined to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained an inheritance that was predestined for us according to the purpose of him [God] who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (paraphrase of Ephesians 1:4,5,11,12) [I hope I didn't do damage to the word of God by paraphrasing. . .forgive me if I did ]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

One more thing. . . .

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[lesjude]

lol.. Thats funny. Scripture says even the elect will not stop sinning until they are glorified, so whats your point?

No, Those in Christ do not willfully sin and are not seen by God as sinners.
1 John 2:1

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

How are people elect? Scripture says through foreknowledge, knowledge of what? What did God know about me that caused him to elect me? How good I was? What type of person I would be? what???

There is NOTHING good about anyone that caused God to elect them. And no, people were not elected because of foreknowledge, but by God's sovereign choice. Foreknowledge means God was aware of all people and events because He sovereignly predestined all before time began . There is NOTHING about anyone's character or person that causes God to love one more than another. He does by His sovereign choice.

 

[lesjude]

One more thing. . . .

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus made the general call for repentance to all sinners. He clearly says that only these could come which were the elect:
[h=3]John 6:37[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]37[/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

[h=3]John 6:44[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[h=3]John 6:65-66[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]65 [/SUP]And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

 

[weakness]

The promises were made to Abraham's seed , which is Christ. Any election or predestination there for must be in Jesus. In Jesus we are predestined, in Jesus we are the elect. God's predestination is towards Jesus,not us. But after hearing the Word or God's voice , and we harden not our hearts we will be baptized into Christ ,and there ,in him, will be elect and predestined to do and be all that is in Christ.

 

[RedTent]

There is a lot of splitting hairs, here. Every single scripture is true. Sometimes we see it from the viewpoint of only one scripture, giving one dimension of a truth. Every scripture must fit together with the other to come to actual truth. Here is a list of some of the truths I (I'm perfect?) see.

God is love. We are separated from God when we sin. We are born in sin. We are offered absolute cleansing from sin if we take advantage of that, it puts us in relationship with God. Christ loves sinners but abhors the sin that separates them from God.

God is eternal, meaning God is without time God is "I am". It is impossible for our minds to wrap around a life without time, we haven't experienced it. God can say who is saved and who isn't as he knows life beyond time, and we are given free will within our concept of time.

 

[lesjude]

We do have a choice. . . the choice is set before us. . .

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. . . TO BELIEVE. . . He that believeth on him is not condemned. . .(those that CHOOSE to believe)

BUT he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(those that CHOOSE NOT to believe)

That's two groups of peoples. . .those that choose to believe and those that don't . . . .a choice had to be made.

The Bible clearly says the only ones that will choose Christ are the ones chosen by God before the foundation of the world. No non elect sinner ever will.

Once that choice is made we become part of the chosen, predestined to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained an inheritance that was predestined for us according to the purpose of him [God] who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (paraphrase of Ephesians 1:4,5,11,12) [I hope I didn't do damage to the word of God by paraphrasing. . .forgive me if I did

]

You are saying the opposite of the Bible. It says Christ chose us, we did not choose Him.

You are saying that man can do something i.e. choose Christ to earn salvation. This is not salvation by grace but works.
Here is when God chose the elect:
[h=3]Ephesians 1:4-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


It would be appreciated if all would read the scripture in the OP BEFORE giving their opinion. It will save everyone a lot of unnecessary key strokes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, Those in Christ do not willfully sin and are not seen by God as sinners.
1 John 2:1

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

There is no such thing as unwillful sin. I don;t know where this false idea came from. Unless people want to excuse there own sin.. sin is sin is sin. stop excusing it!

There is NOTHING good about anyone that caused God to elect them.

Amen, Scripture is clear on this.. why would we think otherwise?

And no, people were not elected because of foreknowledge, but by God's sovereign choice. Foreknowledge means God was aware of all people and events because He sovereignly predestined all before time began . There is NOTHING about anyone's character or person that causes God to love one more than another. He does by His sovereign choice.

So God knows who people are thousands, possibly millions of years in advance, He knows them by name, but he is incapable of knowing whether or not that person will say yes or no to his gospel?

This makes no sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are saying the opposite of the Bible. It says Christ chose us, we did not choose Him.

Who said we chose God? I did not chose God. No one did. CHosing to TRUST his work, and chosing him are not the same.

You are saying that man can do something i.e. choose Christ to earn salvation. This is not salvation by grace but works.
Here is when God chose the elect:
Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


It would be appreciated if all would read the scripture in the OP BEFORE giving their opinion. It will save everyone a lot of unnecessary key strokes.

Faith is not a work. It is a trust..

If we trust self. we are working, if we trust God, he did all the work.

Saying we work to earn salvation because we trusted COMPLETELY in his work is just a false ideology which is not from God. and not found in ANY language.

 

[cfultz3]

Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (Correct. He chose those who are in Christ to be His particular people. How do we get in Christ: believe in Him) that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do (work), that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is a work. That is the only work required from God for us. Do not get me wrong, faith is to be active. But yes, faith is a work.

When I say work, I do not mean a work of the Law, but an action we do.

 

[lesjude]

There is a lot of splitting hairs, here. Every single scripture is true. Sometimes we see it from the viewpoint of only one scripture, giving one dimension of a truth. Every scripture must fit together with the other to come to actual truth. Here is a list of some of the truths I (I'm perfect?) see.

God is love. We are separated from God when we sin. We are born in sin. We are offered absolute cleansing from sin if we take advantage of that, it puts us in relationship with God. Christ loves sinners but abhors the sin that separates them from God.

No, God does not love non elect sinners. He abhors them, hates them, scorns them, laughs at them, spurns them, despises them and holds them in derision. The Bible says all of these things. The Bible only speaks of God's love for sinners in the context of those elect already saved from sin by grace through faith and those elect that will be saved by the gospel: Ephesians 2:1-10; 5:2; 5:25; Romans 5:8-9; John 15:9-17; Galatians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:16, 1 John 4:9-11 and 19, Revelation 1:5; 3:9, John 17:20-26.

God is eternal, meaning God is without time God is "I am". It is impossible for our minds to wrap around a life without time, we haven't experienced it. God can say who is saved and who isn't as he knows life beyond time, and we are given free will within our concept of time.

The elect from the beginning of time will make a freewill choice to receive Christ because God gives them the grace to do it.
Here is the only sense that God loves sinners:
[h=3]Acts 14:17[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

[h=3]Matthew 5:45[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]45 [/SUP]that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

He sustains their lives even in their rebellion and sin as well.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The elect from the beginning of time will make a freewill choice to receive Christ because God gives them the grace to do it.
Here is the only sense that God loves sinners:
Acts 14:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

Matthew 5:45

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]45 [/SUP]that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

He sustains their lives even in their rebellion and sin as well.

God gives grace to everyone, if he did not grace, we would not live past our first sin, we would be obliterated into eternity condemned to hell

stop listening to religion, and think of our loving God.

 

[lesjude]

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do (work), that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is a work. That is the only work required from God for us. Do not get me wrong, faith is to be active. But yes, faith is a work.

When I say work, I do not mean a work of the Law, but an action we do.

The faith the elect put to work is a gift from God by grace to the elect or there would be no salvation. Salvation is by grace through FAITH. The elect then act(work) with that faith and grow it Romans 10:19, Jude 20. Read Ephesians 2:8-10
You left out three key verses in the context of this discussions in John 6:
John 6:37

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:37

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


John 6:44

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.






John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]65 [/SUP]And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[weakness]

​What happens to children who die?? If there not "the elect" they will suffer unbearable eternal fire??? It seem like your saying a father would choose some of his offspring to be wealthy .glorious with all the comfort of peace and eternal joy. And then arbitrarily and without reason choose others, to suffer unbearably forever. This is not even heard of in the world!!! this is worse than Hitler, worse than roasted alive, or any other torcher this world knows. Just who is your father anyway??? He is not mine or the Father of our Lord Jesus!!!

 

[lesjude]

​What happens to children who die?? If there not "the elect" they will suffer unbearable eternal fire??? It seem like your saying a father would choose some of his offspring to be wealthy .glorious with all the comfort of peace and eternal joy. And then arbitrarily and without reason choose others, to suffer unbearably forever. This is not even heard of in the world!!! this is worse than Hitler, worse than roasted alive, or any other torcher this world knows. Just who is your father anyway??? He is not mine or the Father of our Lord Jesus!!!

You, like most in the west are humanist in your thinking. Thus you believe that every human being is of intrinsic worth. The US is a child centered nation. If you doubt it look at your school tax bill. That is not necessarily the way God thinks especially about sinners. You will recall the God ordered the extermination of men, women, children including babies and those with child under His judgement of all the "ites" in Canaan. To the humanist God would be worse then Hitler. Is this what you are charging God with? This action by God was perfectly just right and good. If He put every baby born to sinners in hell fire for eternity he would be doing justly and good. You just do not know who the God of the Bible is because you use the thought patterns of humanism.

The Bible clearly says God is not the father of sinners or their children. The Bible gives no assurance of salvation because of age.
Here is what the Bible says:
Psalm 58:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.


1 Corinthians 7:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

However God is sovereign and perfectly fair and just to ALL. Here is an example: 1 Kings 14:1-3 and 7-13.

 

[lesjude]

God gives grace to everyone, if he did not grace, we would not live past our first sin, we would be obliterated into eternity condemned to hell

stop listening to religion, and think of our loving God.

Of course God gives grace to all in the sense of Matthew 5:45, Acts 14:17, Job 21:7-16. Only the elect get SAVING grace.

 

[lesjude]

Who said we chose God? I did not chose God. No one did. CHosing to TRUST his work, and chosing him are not the same.

Scripture for this please. Abraham believed in the character of God that made the promise before God did anything.

Faith is not a work. It is a trust..

If we trust self. we are working, if we trust God, he did all the work.

Saying we work to earn salvation because we trusted COMPLETELY in his work is just a false ideology which is not from God. and not found in ANY language.

We do not earn salvation but act on the faith God gives us because we are saved. Faith without works is DEAD. James 2:14-26. Saving faith acts putting trust in God to do all he says without sense evidence. Read Hebrews chapter 11.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scripture for this please. Abraham believed in the character of God that made the promise before God did anything.

Yep. Just like I believed in the character of God before he did anything (Justified me, made me alive in him or regenerated me, and gave me the spirit as a guarantee.

We do not earn salvation but act on the faith God gives us because we are saved. Faith without works is DEAD. James 2:14-26. Saving faith acts putting trust in God to do all he says without sense evidence. Read Hebrews chapter 11.

No, we do not act on faith, that would be a salvation of works..We are saved by Gods work before we have the ability to ACT on the faith we have in him.

Your confusing me first you say we can not earn salvation. now your saying we do earn salvation??