Does One Receive the Holy Ghost the Moment they Believe in Jesus?
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You are arguing my case for me, there is the indwelling Spirit and there is the coming upon, the Samaritans did have the indwelling but not the coming upon. The Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them. The same as the Ephesian disciples of John, same as the apostles when Jesus breathed upon them.
They were not endued with power.
That is the case with those good evangelical brothers who fight against the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We love them though they do not love us over muchly.
It has been the same down through the centuries, read the sermons of Spurgeon who mourns in his day that so few enter into the blessedness of experience the outward flow of rivers of living waters.
This is why at various and divers times in church history God has graciously visited His people with times of refreshing. It is VERY IMPORTANT for folks to recognise what God is doing in their generation so that they might be useful and fruitful in the work of the kingdom.
That they might know gladness of heart.
They were not endued with power.
That is the case with those good evangelical brothers who fight against the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We love them though they do not love us over muchly.
It has been the same down through the centuries, read the sermons of Spurgeon who mourns in his day that so few enter into the blessedness of experience the outward flow of rivers of living waters.
This is why at various and divers times in church history God has graciously visited His people with times of refreshing. It is VERY IMPORTANT for folks to recognise what God is doing in their generation so that they might be useful and fruitful in the work of the kingdom.
That they might know gladness of heart.
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There are examples where no one laid hands on someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:38-39 for example: "So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing."
Did the eunuch have the Holy Spirit when he came up out of the water, or did he now have to go find someone to lay on hands?
Jesus didn't say, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [and lay hands on them so they will receive the Holy Spirit]." No, He commanded them: "teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you;" How were they supposed to observe everything He commanded them unless they received the Holy Spirit at baptism?
This raises another question. Who's authorized to lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? Anyone? Only apostles? If apostles only we now have another difficulty. It naturally follows that there must be modern-day apostles to lay on hands.
Did the eunuch have the Holy Spirit when he came up out of the water, or did he now have to go find someone to lay on hands?
Jesus didn't say, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [and lay hands on them so they will receive the Holy Spirit]." No, He commanded them: "teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you;" How were they supposed to observe everything He commanded them unless they received the Holy Spirit at baptism?
This raises another question. Who's authorized to lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? Anyone? Only apostles? If apostles only we now have another difficulty. It naturally follows that there must be modern-day apostles to lay on hands.
It's all about THE Gospel folks.
The Holy Spirit is given to those that hear and believe the Gospel. Not through Baptisms, or rituals.
The order in which one is Baptized is irrelevant.
Here we see the believers receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were Baptized. BECAUSE Peter gave them the Gospel, and they believed:
Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the [l]children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom [m]they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission[n] of sins.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And [o]those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
The Holy Spirit is given to those that hear and believe the Gospel. Not through Baptisms, or rituals.
The order in which one is Baptized is irrelevant.
Here we see the believers receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were Baptized. BECAUSE Peter gave them the Gospel, and they believed:
Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the [l]children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom [m]they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission[n] of sins.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And [o]those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
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Does one receive the Holy Spirit upon receiving Jesus? Both yes and no. Yes, as Cornelius house heard the gospel, the Holy Ghost fell on them. How did they know they received the Holy Spirit,? they heard them speak in tongues and prophesied. Another example, is when Paul was seeing a group of believers coming toward him and he asked them, “Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?”. Their reply, ”We never heard anything about a Holy Spirit just the baptism of John.“ Soon as the group realized they were missing the main component to their experience, they wanted to be filled.
But, the itching ear crowd who do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate experience, they will explain it away.
But, the itching ear crowd who do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate experience, they will explain it away.
Precious friend, good thing ALL of God's children are a "work-IN-progress" eh?
Now, how do we solve All of this Confusion? By accusations or By The Scriptures?
And, while we're at it, NOT "explaining anything away," BUT "studying HIS Word
Of Truth, Rightly Divided, shewing ourselves Approved Unto God!" Amen?
Biblical Fact: There is NO "baptism OF The Holy Spirit," BUT, There are The
TWO ("WITH And BY" The Holy Spirit) Plainly And Clearly Shown below:
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL, under the gospel of the kingdom:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =
A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Especially Luke 7:29-30;
Acts_10:37; Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
Mystery/GRACE! =
our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST, with
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!:
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄
Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; ►►► 1 Corinthians 12:13 ◄◄◄)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE
Is it not Possible That God's Answer Of "No water baptism, for
us Today," Under HIS Pure GRACE, absolutely vanquishes Satan's
{Many Severely DIVIDED denominations?} Confusion into oblivion!?
---------------------------------------------------
FULL "study" of ALL Bible baptisms is here:
12 baptisms vs ONE Baptism
LORD JESUS, thank You for This Precious Word Of Truth That Has Solved
my Confusion. May This Also be used for the Encouragement of Many others.
Amen.
Now, how do we solve All of this Confusion? By accusations or By The Scriptures?
And, while we're at it, NOT "explaining anything away," BUT "studying HIS Word
Of Truth, Rightly Divided, shewing ourselves Approved Unto God!" Amen?
Biblical Fact: There is NO "baptism OF The Holy Spirit," BUT, There are The
TWO ("WITH And BY" The Holy Spirit) Plainly And Clearly Shown below:
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL, under the gospel of the kingdom:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =
A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Especially Luke 7:29-30;
Acts_10:37; Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
Mystery/GRACE! =
our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST, with
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!:
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄
Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; ►►► 1 Corinthians 12:13 ◄◄◄)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE
Is it not Possible That God's Answer Of "No water baptism, for
us Today," Under HIS Pure GRACE, absolutely vanquishes Satan's
{Many Severely DIVIDED denominations?} Confusion into oblivion!?
---------------------------------------------------
FULL "study" of ALL Bible baptisms is here:
12 baptisms vs ONE Baptism
LORD JESUS, thank You for This Precious Word Of Truth That Has Solved
my Confusion. May This Also be used for the Encouragement of Many others.
Amen.
The word of truth, the gospel of salvation is what was initially heard on the Day of Pentecost. After hearing the entire message the hearers accepted what was presented and trusted that what they were told was in fact truth. They obeyed the message as indicated and as Peter stated they could expect to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. The command to be water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost was later seen in the experiences recorded in Acts 8, 10, 19.
The word clearly shows that some receive the Holy Ghost first and afterward get water baptized. While others get water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. This is actually the case with the Samaritans and the Ephesus disciples.
The word clearly shows that some receive the Holy Ghost first and afterward get water baptized. While others get water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. This is actually the case with the Samaritans and the Ephesus disciples.
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Look at the different roles of the Holy Spirit.
At receiving eternal salvation, the HS seals an individual believer unto the day of redemption.
The HS also dwells in the midst of an assembly of saved, baptized believers... see Mathew 18.
The Holy Spirit also would empower groups of believers like in Acts 2.
So there is the HS .. 'indwelling' 'coming upon' and 'in the midst' that you see in scripture.
Then there are different types of baptisms..
Full immersion for an individual believer..
And then the occurrences in Acts of the Holy Spirit empowering groups, as a different sort of baptism.
So .. when looking at particular passages its important to check what the role of the HS is in these circumstances
At receiving eternal salvation, the HS seals an individual believer unto the day of redemption.
The HS also dwells in the midst of an assembly of saved, baptized believers... see Mathew 18.
The Holy Spirit also would empower groups of believers like in Acts 2.
So there is the HS .. 'indwelling' 'coming upon' and 'in the midst' that you see in scripture.
Then there are different types of baptisms..
Full immersion for an individual believer..
And then the occurrences in Acts of the Holy Spirit empowering groups, as a different sort of baptism.
So .. when looking at particular passages its important to check what the role of the HS is in these circumstances
My comment did not coincide with what you believe.
Acts 2:4 expressly says that on the Day of Pentecost all were FILLED with the Holy Ghost.
"Notice that the biblical records actually express that the Holy Spirit is being received not just coming upon individuals. Paul asked the Ephesus disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed. (Acts 19:1-6) Peter stated that what the people were seeing and hearing on the Day of Pentecost was the promise of the Holy Ghost which was shed forth by Jesus. (Acts 2:33) The scripture states that the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost when Peter and John laid hands on them. (Acts 8:17) And, Peter stated that Cornelius and the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost just as the Jews had on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 10:47)"
Also relevant to the topic is Post #54.
Acts 2:4 expressly says that on the Day of Pentecost all were FILLED with the Holy Ghost.
"Notice that the biblical records actually express that the Holy Spirit is being received not just coming upon individuals. Paul asked the Ephesus disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed. (Acts 19:1-6) Peter stated that what the people were seeing and hearing on the Day of Pentecost was the promise of the Holy Ghost which was shed forth by Jesus. (Acts 2:33) The scripture states that the Samaritans received the Holy Ghost when Peter and John laid hands on them. (Acts 8:17) And, Peter stated that Cornelius and the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost just as the Jews had on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 10:47)"
Also relevant to the topic is Post #54.
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This much is correct. Peter taught that we are born of incorruptible seed through the word of God, and Jesus taught, "My words are Spirit, and they are Life."
But now, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience as the OP has made constant references to throughout this thread, and it is an outpouring of the Spirit in greater measure upon those who have received the Spirit through His word, that they may be empowered supernaturally for ministry.
Also Cornelius and his household. But the norm was through laying on of hands by those upon whom the Spirit had already fallen mightily. It was the same for Jesus. When the woman with the issue of blood touched Him in the crowd, His response was, "Who has touched me? For I felt power go out from Me."
This is the same principle present with the laying on of hands.
I did as well, by an entire group of ministers, some of whom I never saw again, but who I believe had more power and authority than those I came to that convention with. I had forgotten how much laying on of hands was my experience as well until I stopped to think about it after reading some of these posts. I think the OP has an excellent understanding of things.
The record of the eunuch's experience only touched on his water baptism. As you know many scriptures reference certain things and are silent about others. This in no way takes away from what other scriptures indicate is necessary; ie, repentance, etc. As far as the receiving the Holy Ghost the bible indicates that can occur in different ways:
Through the laying on of hands as recorded in Acts chapter 8 - Samaritans, and Acts 19 - Jew/Gentile disciples of Ephesus.
Or, spontaneously as seen in Acts chapter 2 - Jews, and Acts 10 - Gentiles.
Also, why did Jesus give advise about how to receive the Holy Ghost if individuals receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe? "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13
As to your last comment, anyone who has the Holy Spirit can lead others in prayer to receive the Holy Ghost. If we pray for things according to God's will we can expect to receive. (John 15:7, 16:23)
Through the laying on of hands as recorded in Acts chapter 8 - Samaritans, and Acts 19 - Jew/Gentile disciples of Ephesus.
Or, spontaneously as seen in Acts chapter 2 - Jews, and Acts 10 - Gentiles.
Also, why did Jesus give advise about how to receive the Holy Ghost if individuals receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe? "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13
As to your last comment, anyone who has the Holy Spirit can lead others in prayer to receive the Holy Ghost. If we pray for things according to God's will we can expect to receive. (John 15:7, 16:23)