Does One Receive the Holy Ghost the Moment they Believe in Jesus?

[Wansvic]

...
If like those Ephesian disciples [and a HUGE suave of the evangelical movement] you are not told about the baptism with the Holy Ghost you will not believe God for it and so will not receive it. If preachers do not preach that healing is part of salvation at the cross they will not be healed.

God confirms His word.

I was saved through a pentecostal ministry so I got the full whack.

Paul's question to the Ephesians was "Have you received the Holy Ghost since they believed? Believed what? Believed in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. After Paul tells them about Jesus they comply with his instruction to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, (water) and he lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Ghost. (Spirit) These actions line up exactly with what Jesus said was necessary in order for a person to be reborn. (John 3:3-5) And what was conveyed on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

To my knowledge nowhere is it suggested that individuals are indwelt with the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus' sacrifice. However, scripture does indicate that the gospel message includes the need to believe in Jesus' sacrifice as well as man's responsibility to repent, get water baptized, and be indwelt. Those who believe that message will be obedient to God's plan and actually receive the indwelling by the Holy Ghost at some point. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) Also relevant is the fact that a majority of the records mention that the indwelling of the Holy Ghost was evidenced by speaking in tongues.

According to the word being indwelt by the Holy Ghost is required of all. (Romans 8:9-11) Taking this into consideration we know that the Ephesian disciples were in fact lost until they met this requirement and others presented by the Apostle Paul. (Acts 19:1-6) Sadly, if not, they would have heard those dreaded words "I never knew you." (Matthew 7:23)

 

[ResidentAlien]

Baptism serves as a perfect illustration of the new birth. It also serves as a milestone during which one receives the Holy Spirit.

If you assume the Spirit is given the moment you believe, it can lead one to question if they really have the Holy Spirit. For example, a person's faith and understanding (ideally) changes with time. After a period of growth they may look back and think, "Did I really believe back then? It doesn't seem like I truly did believe before now. I wonder if I even have the Spirit." You can look back on your baptism and say confidently, "Yes, that's when I was born anew and received the Spirit."

The laying on of hands may have served the same purpose. It's a tangible experience one could look to and know definitively when something happened.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Does it really matter if baptism is by immersion or not? There seems to be cases in the scripture where people may have been baptised by both Paul and other Apostles without immersion.

Since immersion properly signifies death, burial and resurrection, that is the biblical mode.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:3-5)

"Buried with Him... in the likeness of His death" is symbolized by full immersion in water.

 

[infinitekhanol]

The book of Acts is a transition book from what the Lord was doing in the Jews to the Apostle Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles. It can be dangerous to look for doctrine in Acts. Even the disciples were confused until Paul settles the matter concerning Gentiles.

Is this a joke? I believe you must be mistaken!

 

[infinitekhanol]

Since immersion properly signifies death, burial and resurrection, that is the biblical mode.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:3-5)

"Buried with Him... in the likeness of His death" is symbolized by full immersion in water.

IF that is the case, then everybody baptised in the scripture would have gone through that process. I do not think it really matters. What matters is the understanding that goes with baptism.

 

[Wansvic]

Two instances for example

1. When Paul and Silas baptised the keeper of the prison where they were jailed and his household, no mention of immersion in water. Acts 16:33

2. The baptism of Cornelius and his people by Peter as recorded in Acts 10: 44 - 48

Since the immersion principle is well established in scripture it is not necessary for it to be stated in all scriptures relevant to water baptism.

Mark 1:9-10
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Mark 1:5
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

John 3:23
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Acts 8:36-39
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

 

[Wansvic]

Baptism serves as a perfect illustration of the new birth. It also serves as a milestone during which one receives the Holy Spirit.

If you assume the Spirit is given the moment you believe, it can lead one to question if they really have the Holy Spirit. For example, a person's faith and understanding (ideally) changes with time. After a period of growth they may look back and think, "Did I really believe back then? It doesn't seem like I truly did believe before now. I wonder if I even have the Spirit." You can look back on your baptism and say confidently, "Yes, that's when I was born anew and received the Spirit."

The laying on of hands may have served the same purpose. It's a tangible experience one could look to and know definitively when something happened.

In most all of the recorded conversion experiences the indwelling of the Holy Ghost was evidenced by speaking in tongues. The Samaritan experience also makes it clear that Philip knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost. One must ask how Philip knew this. What evidence was lacking? Upon study of the other conversion experiences it is easy to see what was missing. The others include speaking in tongues. The word states that the truth will always be established by at least 2-3 scripture references.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Or it might be said they were recorded because they spoke in tongues. "Do all speak in tongues?"

 

[Wansvic]

IF that is the case, then everybody baptised in the scripture would have gone through that process. I do not think it really matters. What matters is the understanding that goes with baptism.

Those who are baptized do go through the same process. Notice what Verse 5 says specifically. "IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: "

 

[Wansvic]

Or it might be said they were recorded because they spoke in tongues. "Do all speak in tongues?"

Paul's comment about not all speaking in tongues pertains to the Spiritual Gift of Tongues that are interpreted for the edification of the church body.

 

[Wansvic]

Baptism serves as a perfect illustration of the new birth. It also serves as a milestone during which one receives the Holy Spirit.

If you assume the Spirit is given the moment you believe, it can lead one to question if they really have the Holy Spirit. For example, a person's faith and understanding (ideally) changes with time. After a period of growth they may look back and think, "Did I really believe back then? It doesn't seem like I truly did believe before now. I wonder if I even have the Spirit." You can look back on your baptism and say confidently, "Yes, that's when I was born anew and received the Spirit."

The laying on of hands may have served the same purpose. It's a tangible experience one could look to and know definitively when something happened.

Consider that if being water baptized is when a person receives the Holy Ghost then the Samaritans would have been indwelt at that point. They were not. We know this because Peter and John came to assist in them receiving the Holy Ghost days later.

 

[infinitekhanol]

Since the immersion principle is well established in scripture it is not necessary for it to be stated in all scriptures relevant to water baptism.

Mark 1:9-10
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Mark 1:5
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

John 3:23
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Acts 8:36-39
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Non immersion is equally established. Therefore, it is either by immersion or otherwise. If it is by immersion alone, one has to prove via scripture that all those baptised in their houses for instance had swimming pool or rivers flowing in their basement!

 

[infinitekhanol]

Those who are baptized do go through the same process. Notice what Verse 5 says specifically. "IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: "

What you are quoting here is the spiritual connotation while our discussion is on the physical process of baptism-- -- immersion or otherwise. Either way, it means the same thing.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Paul's comment about not all speaking in tongues pertains to the Spiritual Gift of Tongues that are interpreted for the edification of the church body.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Consider that if being water baptized is when a person receives the Holy Ghost then the Samaritans would have been indwelt at that point. They were not. We know this because Peter and John came to assist in them receiving the Holy Ghost days later.

It took awhile to get there but it's clear to me now what you're advocating. Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. This has already been debated to death so I'm bowing out at this point.

 

[Wansvic]

Non immersion is equally established. Therefore, it is either by immersion or otherwise. If it is by immersion alone, one has to prove via scripture that all those baptised in their houses for instance had swimming pool or rivers flowing in their basement!

Interestingly, the account of the jailor actually implies the group returned from somewhere: "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Acts 16:33-34

I am unaware of scripture actually establishing non immersion in relation to water baptism.

 

[Aaron56]

John said, in Luke 3:16 “...‘I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

We know who "the one more powerful" is: Jesus Christ. This is a direct comparison between John and Christ. Their manner and substance of baptism is different: John, baptized people with water whereas Christ will baptize with the "Holy Spirit and with fire".

In Acts 1:5 we then have this from Jesus: “For John (John the Baptist) baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Now, Jesus did not baptize them with the Holy Spirit while He was on the earth. Jesus ascended into heaven in Acts 1:9-11 but the day of Pentecost did not occur until after He ascended. It was on THAT day that they were baptized as was foretold: with the Holy Spirit.

This continues today: anyone who has been baptized with the Spirit has been baptized, by Jesus Christ, while He is in heaven and they are in the earth. Coincidentally, this is the baptism of Jesus Christ: not of water but with the Spirit. And the transaction occurs when we are here and He is in heaven.

Well, what about this verse?

“And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” (This is in John 20:22)

There is a distinction between receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and receiving the baptism of the Spirit. The distinction is simple: the indwelling of the Spirit, as a gift to the believer, is meant to confirm that you are born again of God. That your Father is the Living God. That is why when you are born again, that you cry out "Abba Father!" This is a gift to believers. Baptism of the Spirit is meant to impart power. This is why the disciples were to wait in Jerusalem until they received the baptism by the Spirit: they needed power. They already had the indwelling of the Spirit but they did not have the baptism of the Spirit.

After the twelve witness the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Jews listening are cut to the deep. They ask what they can do.

Peter gave them this instruction:

Acts 2:38-39 "..Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

This same language (receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) was used when Jesus said "Receive the Holy Spirit".

The disciples were born again so they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22. However, they did not receive power until Jesus Christ, in heaven while they were on the earth, baptized them with the Spirit on Pentecost in Acts chapter 1: 1-4.

It is foolhardy that we should think that Jesus would send us out into the world that is controlled by the demonic without empowering us to do successful battle against the demonic. What guarantee would there be except our failure? The baptism “of” the Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes and gives you power, is meant to result in your receiving an impartation of the power and the authority that belongs to Jesus Christ, working now on your behalf and working through you.

This is power is not faith, hope, and love, as cessationists like to argue. This is power and authority from the King of kings. We wrestle against spiritual forces of evil so the King, through His delegate (the Holy Spirit) empowers those who carry Him in earthen vessels of the flesh.

There is much I left unwritten. I might be back to add more. Be blessed,

Aaron56

 

[Wansvic]

What you are quoting here is the spiritual connotation while our discussion is on the physical process of baptism-- -- immersion or otherwise. Either way, it means the same thing.

I am always surprised when people fail to see that obedience to God's commands have the ability to produce a spiritual reality. Obedience is the key.

 

[Wansvic]

...
Well, what about this verse?

“And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” (This is in John 20:22)

There is a distinction between receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and receiving the baptism of the Spirit. The distinction is simple: the indwelling of the Spirit, as a gift to the believer, is meant to confirm that you are born again of God. That your Father is the Living God. That is why when you are born again, that you cry out "Abba Father!" This is a gift to believers. Baptism of the Spirit is meant to impart power. This is why the disciples were to wait in Jerusalem until they received the baptism by the Spirit: they needed power. They already had the indwelling of the Spirit but they did not have the baptism of the Spirit...

Your statement that the gift and the Spirit baptism are two distinct experiences does not line up with what the word states in the Acts 10 account. As stated there the gift and the baptism of the Holy Ghost are one in the same:

Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

 

[Aaron56]

Your statement that the gift and the Spirit baptism are two distinct experiences does not line up with what the word states in the Acts 10 account. As stated there the gift and the baptism of the Holy Ghost are one in the same:

Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

In the example you provided, they received the baptism of the Spirit immediately upon conversion. That, I believe, was for Peter's benefit but the Lord still does this today.

You have to consider all the experiences together to get the whole picture. Without doing so we get bad doctrine.