Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?

reneweddaybyday · Tuesday at 1:09 AM

The words "all men" appear twice in Rom 5:18 ... a fact which you gloss over and ignore in your never ending attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

Romans 5:17-18 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The word "receive" in Rom 5:17 is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means actively lay hold of to take or receive, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available ... emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver - HELPS Word-studies.

In Rom 5:18, the first all refers to all humanity ... all descendants of Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who lambanō ... (they actively lay hold of ... they do not reject the gift of righteousness) ... by grace through faith the justified ones are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ.
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reneweddaybyday · Tuesday at 1:17 AM

brightfame52 said:

you equate your surmisings to the gospel of Christ ??? if/when you preach the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16), you and I will be in agreement.

brightfame52 said:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

the term "all men" is used twice in Rom 5:18:

judgment came upon all men to condemnation ... all descendants of Adam are under condemnation [Greek = katákrima = sentence of condemnation handed down after due process] ... not because of sin of Adam but because of the sin committed by each and every one - Rom 5:12.

free gift came upon all men unto justification of life ... the free gift ... unto justification of life is graciously given by God to those who receive it as shown in Rom 5:17.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The word "receive" in Rom 5:17 is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means actively lay hold of to take or receive, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available ... emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver - HELPS Word-studies.

Not all descendants of Adam lambanō the free gift ... not because God withholds from anyone, but because some suppress the truth in unrighteousness and thereby reject the free gift.

Those who lambanō the free gift will be exempted from the condemnation.

Come Judgment Day, those who remain under condemnation will have had their due process ... the judgment will be fair and just based upon the full counsel of God. God is not an unjust Judge ... those who did not lambanō the free gift ... those who rejected God throughout the course of their life will know that they are without excuse.
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brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:09 AM

Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ? 4

Again, why is it called Justification of life ? Not only because those Christ lived and died for are entitled to and have a right to life eternal Rev 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

How do they do Gods commandments ? By Christ doing them for them Rom 5:18-19 !

Now once again, all those Christ lived and died for, shall receive from the Lord spiritual life, because to them, Christ is a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Now who did the Last Adam become a life giving Spirit unto ? Those that He was delivered for their offences and was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25 which Justification gives Life, hence Justification unto life ! Christ must give them Life as their Last Adam. They shall all be made alive spiritually, by a new life or new birth, because that which caused them death, be it spiritual or otherwise, was sin, for all death is the wages of sin Rom 6:23.

However when sin hath been dealt with, put away, taken away, by the blood or death of Christ 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Also see Jn 1:29 then also the consequences of the penalty of sin is done away with or abolished. Paul wrote that Christ did what ? Abolished death here 2 Tim 1:10

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Note: Jesus Christ cant officially be ones Saviour without for them abolishing death ! All who enter into the second death, Jesus Christ was not their Saviour, sorry ! That would contradict the fact that He's a Saviour !

Now since death has been abolished, Divine Justice to vindicate that, must give Life for an evidence. This evidences that Christ death of obedience did indeed satisfy His Justice for all them Christ died for and put away their sins. So it would be an injury and injustice, to the Person and Work of Gods Beloved Son, that any for whom He died for, would remain in spiritual death and or go into the second death !

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:12 AM

Clayman said:

Exactly, You dont see anything about believing or anything about not believing in Rom 5:18 as all it is saying is by one offence (Adam) came death, and by one righteous person (Christ) came the gift of life, oh and I nearly forgot the caveat included here, this is death and life for all men.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You know even so. or likewise, or in the same manner, correspondingly, by the same token. something that parallels something.

If brightfame sends out 1000 invitations for his birthday, and only 100 people arrive to eat the fabulous cake you made, and your uncle says where is everyone else I thought old Jim would be here? you are the obviously the type to turn around and say nah he obviously didnt get the invite, for if I invited him he would be here eating my lovely cake and drinking my lovely punch!

Just because some chose to do other things does not mean they all were not invited for free cake.

Again believing has nothing to do with the Justification of Life resulted in, in Rom 5:18b

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:13 AM

HealthAndHappiness said:

The Mormons last week told me that their prophet's gospel is to "repent of your sins", baptism in water, restitution (basically their repentance), loving Jesus and keeping all of the commandments.
Because of answers I heard like this all my life, I decided to look it up for myself.

The Law, prophets, poetic books, gospels through the epistles to Revelation were written to those who were God's people. The one book addressed to the lost is the gospel of John.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

There is an appropriate Biblical response in this gospel given to them.
Do you know what it is and how many times it was written?

Wasting time

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:16 AM

HealthAndHappiness said:

Second point:

Looking at the context of the chapter, Paul is not emphasizing faith or believing. He is emphasizing that the Romans salvation is the free gift of God's grace based upon the atonement.

Then in Matthew 24, I was reflecting on God's wrath another day. Then the Holy Spirit brought to mind John 3:36 that I think I posted previously. Then I opened only one page to Romans 5 and He placed my eyes immediately on vs 9. I'll post 8 too for context.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

In John 3, we are told how to be delivered from wrath and condemnation. Do you remember what words were used?

Rom 5:18 showed how the elect were delivered from condemnation.

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:19 AM

@studier

If you want to go there, you are promoting Justification by your works, your actions which is totally anti Grace. That's nowhere implied in Rom 5:18b

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:24 AM

reneweddaybyday said:

The all men are limited to only some, all of which receive Justification unto life ! To be honest, the entire passage Rom 5:1-21 is solely about the elect, not all humanity. Paul is setting forth the experience of the elect in their #1 Natural head Adam, and then their recovery by and through their Spiritual Head Christ The non elect reprobate are not in the equation at all

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 4:47 AM

reneweddaybyday said:

Like I stated, you dont believe the Gospel. Further the entire passage is about the elect, the church. And the receiving is an effectual giving, all the elect will receive abundant of grace because its caused to abound to them. Thats why it reads "that grace may abound Rom 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

They receive the Gift and Grace because the Gift was active in abounding towards them

Hath abounded perisseuō is aorist Active indicative, and it means:

"a thing comes in abundance, or overflows, unto one; something falls to the lot of one in large measure"

All Christ Body He died for shall receive of Him, out of Him Grace abundant Jn 1 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

You err not knowing the scriptures, Just because receiving in Rom 5:17 is active voice, doesnt mean they weren't passive in receiving the Grace conveyed to them.

In scripture in Spiritual matters things are said to have been received because of the effectiveness of the giver Jn 3:27

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

if I receive Grace, the credit goes to giver in Heaven !

sawdust · Tuesday at 8:36 AM

Cameron143 said:

Their refusal to believe in Christ.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

brightfame52 · Tuesday at 8:51 AM

sawdust said:

The refusal to believe in Christ is paid for, if Christ died for you.

sawdust · Tuesday at 9:26 AM

brightfame52 said:

No it isn't. Christ would have to deny Himself to pay for that and He cannot deny Himself 2Tim.2:13 . He paid for all the wrongdoing (sin) that results from our unbelief (evil). When we entertain desires that are not based on the the truth but are a rejection of the truth, we end up committing a sin.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Christ paid for our sin, we have to pay for our evil. For the believer it will mean loss of reward, for the unbeliever it will mean the lake of fire.

Kroogz · Tuesday at 9:29 AM

brightfame52 said:

Rev 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.

All sin is paid for......But not our evil. Human good is evil. Cains offering was not a sin, it was his own "good" or evil.

Matt 7:22-23
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Cameron143 · Tuesday at 10:00 AM

sawdust said:

Is unbelief a sin?

Magenta · Tuesday at 10:10 AM

Cameron143 said:

Everything not of faith is sin.

studier · Tuesday at 10:11 AM

brightfame52 said:

Works are what God says they are, not what men like you say they are.

Taking hold of the gift offered is not a meritorious work no matter what some depraved system of interpretation says it is.

I know you like to consider a single verse out of Scripture to feebly attempt to establish erroneous doctrine, but if you could look past the blindness into some context, you might see that the taking hold of abundant grace in Rom5:17 ties back to having access/a way of approach into this grace by faith and being justified by faith discussed at the beginning of the chapter Rom5:1-2. That active taking hold in Rom5:17 is what Faith does. Actually, it is Faith as pistis and lambanō are used in parallel in the Text.

I was pondering you guys and your system and fallacious argumentation while out breathing the fresh air this morning. It's kind of subtle but when pushed your fallacies jump straight into telling those who don't accept your misinterpretations that we don't know Grace. If we push this harder to get you where you inevitably go with these logical fallacies, this allegation "scoff[ing] at the Gospel of Grace" at root is you telling us we're not Christians. Your asserting "works [salvation]" is just your heading further to where you'll end up at denying our salvation.

The more learned TULIPists know not to go there. The aggressive pups like you haven't learned this yet. The fallacious argumentation shows the poor reasoning at work to take you there.

It's sad, actually. With all the Grace we have access to, we the corporate elect should do better.

Mem · Tuesday at 10:23 AM

sawdust said:

At this point, I see no reason in trying to convince anyone that I see is set in the view so, in want to conserve my energy for more productive endeavors, I've left the aspiration of moses for that of either Aaron or Hur in propping up his arms. The commandment is the believe in God's mercy as much as His justice, and the cross is where those attributes are reconciled. The view that His mercy doesn't apply in any case suggests one should then not believe in His mercy in that case...which leaves that case only dependent on His justice, wherein the cross has no effect...

a very confusing logical string to follow.

sawdust · Tuesday at 10:29 AM

Cameron143 said:

Unbelief is denial of Christ (evil). You can call it sin if you want but it won't alter the fact Christ cannot pay for it because He cannot deny Himself 2Tim.2:13 . He paid for all the wrongdoing (sin) that results from our unbelief (evil). When we entertain desires that are not based on the the truth but are a rejection of the truth, we end up committing a sin.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Christ paid for our sin, we have to pay for our evil. For the believer it will mean loss of reward, for the unbeliever it will mean the lake of fire.

sawdust · Tuesday at 10:31 AM

Mem said:

At this point, I see no reason in trying to convince anyone that I see is set in the view so, in want to conserve my energy for more productive endeavors, I've left the aspiration of moses for that of either Aaron or Hur in propping up his arms. The commandment is the believe in God's mercy as much as His justice, and the cross is where those attributes are reconciled. The view that His mercy doesn't apply in any case suggests one should then not believe in His mercy in that case...which leaves that case only dependent on His justice, wherein the cross has no effect...

a very confusing logical string to follow.

??

I'd reply but I don't know what you said.

ps it is late here so it may not just be you.

Mem · Tuesday at 10:36 AM

sawdust said:

It just means I'd rather reinforce the points I agree with more than argue.

Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?

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