Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?

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systemdown101

Guest
#341
#341
While all of this is interesting, it really all boils down to one thing: Did Yeshua teach us that Mary was the intercessor for mankind? Did he call His mother the Ark of the Covenant? Did he tell us to pray Hail Mary's many times? I don't think He did.

I agree that she is blessed, but until I see any scriptural proof, I'm afraid I find it difficult to believe anything about Mary short of what is said in the Bible. Nor is it even necessary as she is in no way required for our personal salvation.
 
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StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
#342
#342
systemdown101 said:
While all of this is interesting, it really all boils down to one thing: Did Yeshua teach us that Mary was the intercessor for mankind? Did he call His mother the Ark of the Covenant? Did he tell us to pray Hail Mary's many times? I don't think He did.

I agree that she is blessed, but until I see any scriptural proof, I'm afraid I find it difficult to believe anything about Mary short of what is said in the Bible. Nor is it even necessary as she is in no way required for our personal salvation.
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If its not necessary, then why did the holy Apostle James say?
"Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Asking the Saints to pray for us in Heaven is no different than for me to ask you to, "pray for me". This being so, the Saints can pray for us in Heaven because they are not dead but alive, for God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: you therefore do greatly err." (Mark 12:27)


Therefore, since they are dead in the body but fully alive unto God, they can pray for us just as we can pray for one another. The Saints are more Righteous than us (James 5:16) and have more powerful prayers. This is exactly why we pray to them and ask for their all powerful prayers.
 
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systemdown101

Guest
#343
#343
StMichaelTheArchangel said:
If its not necessary, then why did the holy Apostle James say?
"Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord...
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Maybe it's just me, but weren't these "elders of the church" alive at that point? It seems to me that what James is saying is to go to the church you belong to and ask the elders there to pray for/with you, lay on hands and so forth, and not to venerate those who have passed on. Again, Yeshua didn't tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, David, or Abraham, who were certainly venerated by the Jews of the day, He said to pray to His Father. Indeed, when Moses and Elijah were with Yeshua at the Transfiguration, God said "This is My Son, hear Him!" and not Moses or Elijah. Yes, Moses and Elijah are still alive in heaven, but if God is saying to listen to Yeshua, well ...
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#344
Aug 3, 2009
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#344
systemdown101 said:
Maybe it's just me, but weren't these "elders of the church" alive at that point? It seems to me that what James is saying is to go to the church you belong to and ask the elders there to pray for/with you, lay on hands and so forth, and not to venerate those who have passed on. Again, Yeshua didn't tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, David, or Abraham, who were certainly venerated by the Jews of the day, He said to pray to His Father. Indeed, when Moses and Elijah were with Yeshua at the Transfiguration, God said "This is My Son, hear Him!" and not Moses or Elijah. Yes, Moses and Elijah are still alive in heaven, but if God is saying to listen to Yeshua, well ...
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Well, what? We are listening to Jesus, He told us to pray for one another! So why can't Moses, Elijah, or any of our other beloved brothers and sisters in Heaven pray for us? Why can't we ask them to pray for us?
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#345
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#345
dscherck said:
Well, what? We are listening to Jesus, He told us to pray for one another! So why can't Moses, Elijah, or any of our other beloved brothers and sisters in Heaven pray for us? Why can't we ask them to pray for us?
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Because its a sin against God.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#346
#346
Grandpa said:
Because its a sin against God.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
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Last time I checked I haven't been consortin' with no demons.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#347
Aug 3, 2009
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#347
Grandpa said:
Because its a sin against God.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
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How does that apply?

Come on, if you seriously can't tell the difference between,
"Oh ancient spirit give me the secrets to eternal life" -vs- "Dear grandma, I'm really lonely and worried, I know you're up there with Jesus, please keep an eye out for me." then there's something really wrong.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#348
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#348
dscherck said:
How does that apply?

Come on, if you seriously can't tell the difference between,
"Oh ancient spirit give me the secrets to eternal life" -vs- "Dear grandma, I'm really lonely and worried, I know you're up there with Jesus, please keep an eye out for me." then there's something really wrong.
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I can surely tell the difference. How old would Mary and your saints be today if they were alive? Would you say she was ancient now?

Why didn't Jesus teach ANYONE to pray to Elijah or Abraham, or Abrahams mom, if this were really as innocent as you are trying to make it out to be? Or if it were the right thing to do?

In fact aren't we given specific instances in the bible where consulting the spirits of the dead is wrong?
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#350
Aug 3, 2009
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#350
Grandpa said:
When was the last time you prayed to Mary or the Saints?

Did they answer?
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Earlier today actually. And I'd think so. My daughter is well on the way to recovery from the nasty flu that's been going around. And I do chalk it up to a combination of prayer, asking the Blessed Virgin to pray for her, and giving her lots of love and kisses. :)

She went from having a high fever this morning and being lethargic, to the happy bouncy 3 yr old little girl she normally is (aside from a runny nose that is).
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#351
Aug 3, 2009
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#351
Grandpa said:
I can surely tell the difference. How old would Mary and your saints be today if they were alive? Would you say she was ancient now?
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They are alive. Scripture is quite clear on that.
Why didn't Jesus teach ANYONE to pray to Elijah or Abraham, or Abrahams mom, if this were really as innocent as you are trying to make it out to be? Or if it were the right thing to do?
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He didn't specify those particular saints, but He did tell us to pray for one another. We hear the same thing from His chosen Apostles as well.


In fact aren't we given specific instances in the bible where consulting the spirits of the dead is wrong?
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Again, the saints are not dead. Scripture is very clear on that fact. Why do you insist otherwise?
 
K

Kyouken

Guest
#352
#352
dscherck said:
Earlier today actually. And I'd think so. My daughter is well on the way to recovery from the nasty flu that's been going around. And I do chalk it up to a combination of prayer, asking the Blessed Virgin to pray for her, and giving her lots of love and kisses. :)

She went from having a high fever this morning and being lethargic, to the happy bouncy 3 yr old little girl she normally is (aside from a runny nose that is).
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It wasn't Mary's prayers that got your daughter well. It was Jesus' stripes that He took for us. It's by His stripes that we have been healed. And I'm not saying that Mary prayed at all, either.

The rest isn't directed at you, dscherck; I just didn't want to post two posts.

Praying to dead people to pray for us is not smart.
Every living person has more power and authority than the any of the saints who were alive.
I have more authority and power than the apostle Paul. Why? Because I have a living body in which I can speak words into the world. Likewise, you all have more authority and power than the apostle Paul because Paul no longer has a physical body.

Praying to dead people to pray for us is completely ineffective. I don't care if your daughter got well all of sudden; I can't explain it (though I have an idea), nor will I try, but it was NOT Mary who even helped a tidbit.

Those who think very highly of Mary and miss something very important. I personally don't give a crap about what Mary thinks or wills or anything, but think of it this way:
If Mary wants people to come to the knowledge that her Son was the Christ, how much more does God?
Don't you think Mary would want you to glorify God? Mary wouldn't want you to pray to her, she'd want you to pray to God.

Mary was obviously blessed to have Jesus in her womb, but she was just a human being.

With all that said, this is for you, dscherck - I'm happy for you and your daughter that she is well :D Praise God!
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#353
Aug 3, 2009
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#353
Kyouken said:
It wasn't Mary's prayers that got your daughter well. It was Jesus' stripes that He took for us. It's by His stripes that we have been healed. And I'm not saying that Mary prayed at all, either.

The rest isn't directed at you, dscherck; I just didn't want to post two posts.

Praying to dead people to pray for us is not smart.
Every living person has more power and authority than the any of the saints who were alive.
I have more authority and power than the apostle Paul. Why? Because I have a living body in which I can speak words into the world. Likewise, you all have more authority and power than the apostle Paul because Paul no longer has a physical body.

Praying to dead people to pray for us is completely ineffective. I don't care if your daughter got well all of sudden; I can't explain it (though I have an idea), nor will I try, but it was NOT Mary who even helped a tidbit.

Those who think very highly of Mary and miss something very important. I personally don't give a crap about what Mary thinks or wills or anything, but think of it this way:
If Mary wants people to come to the knowledge that her Son was the Christ, how much more does God?
Don't you think Mary would want you to glorify God? Mary wouldn't want you to pray to her, she'd want you to pray to God.

Mary was obviously blessed to have Jesus in her womb, but she was just a human being.

With all that said, this is for you, dscherck - I'm happy for you and your daughter that she is well :D Praise God!
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Why is it that everyone keeps insisting, despite the clear word of Scripture, that the saints in Heaven are dead?

But I do thank you for your kind words re: my daughter. Now my poor wife is feeling under the weather. Though today is the feast day of St. Blase... I should ask him for prayers too.
 
K

Kyouken

Guest
#354
#354
dscherck said:
Why is it that everyone keeps insisting, despite the clear word of Scripture, that the saints in Heaven are dead?

But I do thank you for your kind words re: my daughter. Now my poor wife is feeling under the weather. Though today is the feast day of St. Blase... I should ask him for prayers too.
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Sorry about your wife there D: I hope she's feeling better soon.

When I say dead, I say that they don't have physical bodies, such as you and I.
I think of death as just passing from one place to another, that's all. I believe that their spirits are still alive and kickin'.

Also, the majority of the reason I posted what I did is because you gave some credit to Mary for what Jesus had done, is all. No hard feelings.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#355
#355
dscherck said:
Earlier today actually. And I'd think so. My daughter is well on the way to recovery from the nasty flu that's been going around. And I do chalk it up to a combination of prayer, asking the Blessed Virgin to pray for her, and giving her lots of love and kisses. :)

She went from having a high fever this morning and being lethargic, to the happy bouncy 3 yr old little girl she normally is (aside from a runny nose that is).
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As much as i hate to say it they won't consider any prayers answered after asking the intercession of the Saints as proof of anything. In fact, they'll probably contribute it to demons with the reasoning that "demons answer these prayers (for good things) so that they can keep you further ensnared in that false religious system".

Also, the majority of the reason I posted what I did is because you gave some credit to Mary for what Jesus had done, is all. No hard feelings.
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Nah, it's the same as thanking your friend after he prays for you. Really you have the same concept of intercession as we do, but you only extend it to part of the Church, while we extend it to all of the Church.
 
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