Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

valiant · Nov 30, 2015

No works are NOT necessary if you mean that without them we cannot be saved. When James was talking about a dead faith he was NOT talking abut faith which was once alive. He makes quite clear what he was speaking about. He was speaking about intellectual assent. 'The devils also believe and tremble'. But that kind of intellectual assent has nothing at all to do with living faith which is response to a person.

You are producing an unscriptural cocktail. The faith that saves is faith in Jesus Christ to be our Saviour. That does not require works AT ANY POINT. Works do NOT boost faith. Indeed they often deaden it. What boosts faith is coming to know our Lord Jesus Christ better.

James is talking about being justified in men's eyes (I will show you my faith by my works). Men will truly know that we have come to know Christ when His love shines through our lives. Dead works are just as bad as dead faith. But the faith that is dead is of a wholly different nature than a living faith. In this case the word faith is being used in two ways.

when we speak about building up faith that is a third kind of faith. It is not saving faith made stronger. It is faith in God to act in response to our prayers and obedience. It does not save. It is a consequence of being saved.

You are making the grave error of thinking that 'faith' always means the same thing.

Babylonisfalling · Nov 30, 2015

valiant said:

No works are NOT necessary if you mean that without them we cannot be saved. When James was talking about a dead faith he was NOT talking abut faith which was once alive. He makes quite clear what he was speaking about. He was speaking about intellectual assent. 'The devils also believe and tremble'. But that kind of intellectual assent has nothing at all to do with living faith which is response to a person.

You are producing an unscriptural cocktail. The faith that saves is faith in Jesus Christ to be our Saviour. That does not require works AT ANY POINT. Works do NOT boost faith. Indeed they often deaden it. What boosts faith is coming to know our Lord Jesus Christ better.

James is talking about being justified in men's eyes (I will show you my faith by my works). Men will truly know that we have come to know Christ when His love shines through our lives. Dead works are just as bad as dead faith. But the faith that is dead is of a wholly different nature than a living faith. In this case the word faith is being used in two ways.

when we speak about building up faith that is a third kind of faith. It is not saving faith made stronger. It is faith in God to act in response to our prayers and obedience. It does not save. It is a consequence of being saved.

You are making the grave error of thinking that 'faith' always means the same thing.<---So how many definitions of faith do you have?

The error is on your part and it lies in twisting Scripture to suit your religion.
You wouldn't need to do that if you had greater faith in the Bible, regardless of which definition of faith your currently using.

valiant · Nov 30, 2015

There are clearly a number of definitions of faith. It can mean mere intellectual belief, it can mean faith in an object that it will take my weight, it can mean response to a person, it can mean a deepening relationship with God. These are all different types of faith.

Babylonisfalling said:

Now you are just being absurd.

VCO · Nov 30, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

Works of the Holy Spirit, NOT SELF.

John 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is {the human} spirit.

Colossians 2:13 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You were once dead because of your failures and your uncircumcised corrupt nature. But God made you alive with Christ when he forgave all our failures.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

GOD's Love brings that dead human spirit to eternal life:

John 3:36 (BBE)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will not see life; God's wrath is resting on him.

The body of the born again believer will die like all flesh, Yes there will be a resurrection, BUT this says they already HAVE ETERNAL LIFE within them. IT IS A REFERENCE TO ETERNAL LIFE OF HUMAN SPIRIT, ONCE IT IS BIRTHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

VCO · Nov 30, 2015

mailmandan said:

We obey Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) when we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Multiple acts of obedience/good works which follow are what believers are saved FOR and NOT by (Ephesians 2:10).

What does John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5 etc.. all say? Salvation to those who simply BELIEVE. Believe but do not obey is an oxymoron. Genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. Attempted obedience without genuine belief is not obedience.

The will of the Father is not salvation by works. John 6:40 - "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

These people may have believed "mental assent" in Christ (just as the devils do in James 2:19) but they did not believe/trust in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THAT YOU ARE NOT GRASPING. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in THEIR accomplishments/works to save them and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was really disobedience. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous.

OH MY, I used to wear one of those hats with that particular Eagle Patch on my shoulder, I had a metal shield on the hat. That was 1968.

Babylonisfalling · Nov 30, 2015

VCO said:

Good Grief

you guys are just ridiculous with this stuff.

The Holy Spirit is involved in all parts of a Christians's life but we are still supposed to do works and yes...SORRY guys...it's really us that is supposed to do the works. Get over it....you won't break a finger nail.

It's Biblical...Faith without works is dead. (And the works aren't The Holy Spirit's responsibility)

Babylonisfalling · Nov 30, 2015

valiant said:

Do multiple definitions come in handy when using interpretations of convenience intended to humor your religion and ignore Scripture?

valiant · Nov 30, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

wow if it is not the Holy Spirit who produces what we do who is it? The Devil? You do greatly err. Indeed I must question whether you are a Christian.

valiant · Nov 30, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

you must learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

Budman · Nov 30, 2015

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

Unless the Holy Spirit is not God, you are in error. Every good thing comes from God, including good works to do.

VCO · Nov 30, 2015

Budman said:

The fact is that genuine FAITH will produce and manifest in our lifestyle good works and obedience to HIM.

NEVER do those good works and obedience produce FAITH or SALVATION, those are a gift from GOD.

Babylonisfalling · Nov 30, 2015

valiant said:

Not from anyone who uses definitions of convenience to twist Scripture into his own personal religion

Babylonisfalling · Nov 30, 2015

valiant said:

We do the good works....not the Holy Spirit.

VCO · Nov 30, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

WRONG a faith that DOES NOT PRODUCE good works, is a dead faith, and that human spirit NEVER WAS BORN AGAIN into Eternal Life. IT IS THE SAME KIND OF INTELLECTUAL ONLY FAITH EXHIBITED BY THE THE DEMONS AT GADARA.

Matthew 8:28-32 (NIV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
[SUP]32 [/SUP] He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.

Mark 5:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Mark 5:6 (NRSV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him;

Mark 5:7 (NRSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and he shouted at the top of his voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me."

Bowing to Jesus and intellectually acknowledging who He is, never has been SAVING FAITH, it remains spiritually DEAD. GENUINE SAVING FAITH, always has been that which WILL MANIFEST THAT YOU REALLY WERE SAVED, "PAST TENSE", BY PRODUCING AN ONGOING LIFESTYLE STRIVING TO OBEY AND DO GOOD WORKS.

John 14:23-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who doesn’t love Me will not keep My words. The word that you hear is not Mine but is from the Father who sent Me.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

1 John 2:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

fredoheaven · Dec 1, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

Hi sir and Good day!

Nop, clear as crystal to me is what Romans 10:17, so then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Once, the Word has been heard, faith will work not the works that will propel faith. Faith is made alive and strengthened by the listening to God's Word.

Well, everybody is entitled to his own opinion but I do believe works are not a requirement, but they are the product of having a faith. Hence it is not the cause but the effect.

Babylonisfalling · Dec 1, 2015

VCO said:

Yes!!!!

...and if faith doesn't produce those good works, it is dead.
Faith without works is dead.
Are you saved with a dead faith?

mailmandan · Dec 1, 2015

Faith produces good works BECAUSE it's alive and not dead. Just as a tree produces fruit BECAUSE it's alive and not dead. Good works are not the source of life in faith; rather life in faith is the source of good works. Just as fruit on a tree is not the source of life in the tree; rather the life that flows through the tree (from the root) is the source of life for the fruit. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (FIRST, THEN) unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Works salvationists have this backwards. They have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

seed_time_harvest · Dec 1, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

You have a way of making a statement In a such a way that I have to read It 2 or 3 times before I can get a handle on what you are saying.

It would be very helpful to the reader If you provide some scripture(s) to buttress your interpretations or responses.

But like I said In the other thread"Are we saved with a "dead" faith?"scripture interprets and harmonizes scripture.

In other words If I buttress my point with John 3:16 and you buttress your point with James 2:17 then those scriptures should be In harmony with each other and I did that but you have not done that but keep saying

Babylonisfalling · Dec 1, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

You have a way of making a statement In a such a way that I have to read It 2 or 3 times before I can get a handle on what you are saying.

It would be very helpful to the reader If you provide some scripture(s) to buttress your interpretations or responses.

But like I said In the other thread"Are we saved with a "dead" faith?"scripture interprets and harmonizes scripture.

In other words If I buttress my point with John 3:16 and you buttress your point with James 2:17 then those scriptures should be In harmony with each other and I did that but you have not done that but keep saying

In that other thread I asked for a straightforward answer to the question and you never replied.

VCO · Dec 5, 2015

Babylonisfalling said:

Now this is spooky, we are finally on the same page. OR ARE WE?

Salvation happens at the very instant the Holy Spirit comes into one's heart, and pours GOD's LOVE into that heart, (Rom. 5:5). That also is the very moment the Holy Spirit births our human spirit into eternal life. GOD's LOVE in our hearts produces LOVE for JESUS CHRIST, and a willingness out of that LOVE to surrender to Jesus Christ as MASTER, which is what what confessing Him as LORD actually means.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {not merely profess} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Proof that saving faith was REALLY generated in that heart, is in the FACT that it will produce an ongoing striving to walk in obedience to HIM, and good works because we LOVE HIM, as part of our Christian Lifestyle.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

John 14:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

Senior Member

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Babylonisfalling

Guest

Senior Member