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There is a big difference between the baptism of John, for repentance from sin,
and the baptism of Christ which is for the forgiveness of sins.
Interesting for me is the baptism of John does not mention forgiveness of sins,
just people repenting of their sins, confessing them and being baptised as a sign
of this repentance, like a seal on their lives.
Coming to faith in Christ is a baptism in the forgiveness of sins, sealed with the
Holy Spirit, displayed by the gifts of the Spirit being evident.
I had not noticed the difference before.
and the baptism of Christ which is for the forgiveness of sins.
Interesting for me is the baptism of John does not mention forgiveness of sins,
just people repenting of their sins, confessing them and being baptised as a sign
of this repentance, like a seal on their lives.
Coming to faith in Christ is a baptism in the forgiveness of sins, sealed with the
Holy Spirit, displayed by the gifts of the Spirit being evident.
I had not noticed the difference before.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then that would not be a baptism of fire then would it? but an ongoing purification of the HS.
John baptised people once, Jesus will only baptize people once.. There is not alot of baptisms here..
Is ariel going to be mad that we went backwards again...?
I have enjoyed talking with you guys, as always.
Have to jet, but I'll be back to see what else you come up with with the Spirits help!
I have enjoyed talking with you guys, as always.
Have to jet, but I'll be back to see what else you come up with with the Spirits help!
A one-time baptism is about ownership, moving from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom
of light, but it does not mean we have been refined. And walking in the kingdom is a strange
mixture of spiritual reality and letting Gods word work its way in us.
The idea of our work being burnt up suggests though we are born into the kingdom, we can
have all things burnt off and not be lost. The more I read of Pauls ways of expressing things
he appears to believe once saved, you are held. Why would he hand people over to Satan
for rebuke, if this was not so. I think the writer of Hebrews is not Paul because the style
and emphasis is different from Pauls listed letters. Hebrews appears to express some
walk like we do, but fail.
Pauls emphasis on effort, perseverance, conviction, walking with a clean conscience everything
is a conscious relationship with potential ups and downs.
Jesus spoke of being baptized in sufferings. (The cup He prepared Himself to drink from.)
And He said: you indeed will be baptized in this way/drink from the cup I drink from.
And it is suffering to die to our self will, pride, arrogance.
It's war, in fact.
These things in us are what we put on the cross we pick up to follow. They have to die so we live.
This is a narrow and painful way to our pride, self will, etc.
Got off on a tangent there. There is one baptism of the Spirit. But then He works to perfect us.
I may have just seemed to ramble...I've been known to do it.
You're both saying that Sanctification occurs. And I certainly agree with that. But I am still seeing a fairly instantaneous baptism (or baptismS) described in the verse.
Jesus spoke of being baptized in sufferings. (The cup He prepared Himself to drink from.)
And He said: you indeed will be baptized in this way/drink from the cup I drink from.
And it is suffering to die to our self will, pride, arrogance.
It's war, in fact.
These things in us are what we put on the cross we pick up to follow. They have to die so we live.
This is a narrow and painful way to our pride, self will, etc.
Got off on a tangent there. There is one baptism of the Spirit. But then He works to perfect us.
I may have just seemed to ramble...I've been known to do it.
What I have not quite understood is this verse
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church
Col 1:24
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.
1 Peter 4:1
Suffering is part of our walk, not to be shrunk back from.
A verse can actually mean different things depending on what you are addressing it to.
Imagine if God actually deals with people differently, so there is no definate formula.
“Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; and taking food, he was strengthened.
Acts 9:17-19
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Jesus spoke of being baptized in sufferings. (The cup He prepared Himself to drink from.)
And He said: you indeed will be baptized in this way/drink from the cup I drink from.
And it is suffering to die to our self will, pride, arrogance.
It's war, in fact.
These things in us are what we put on the cross we pick up to follow. They have to die so we live.
This is a narrow and painful way to our pride, self will, etc.
Got off on a tangent there. There is one baptism of the Spirit. But then He works to perfect us.
I may have just seemed to ramble...I've been known to do it.
I think Jesus spoke of the cross.. That was his baptism. And we too will have to be baptized in that same baptism (rom 6)
Yes, there is one baptism of the spirit That saves washes us, Saves us, Justifies us, Regenerates us etc etc.
But then comes the sanctification process, which is ongoing.
There will also be one baptism of fire.. Anyone who is not baptised in the HS will suffer that baptism.
To me, Jesus will baptize everyone.
Take your choice, reject the baptism of the spirit, and you wil be baptized in fire. But you wil be baptized by Jesus, whether you want to or not..
I got out of what I had to do, quite by providence, so I came back eagerly!
We talked about this earlier when Ariel brought up baptism.
Some people describe something much different than what I did, which was a wowsa moment in time Baptism. Others don't recall a specific...event, but just always sensed His Presence from childhood. Some it is a more gradual awareness, much less violent than my own. And one man I met insisted it only happened if you were baptized in water because it happened to him the very moment he was baptized in water! We experience it differently.
I've heard other men (and this has been my experience) say that there is something sort of like a second baptism. (Mind you, they are trying their best to describe what they've experienced in our Lord.) But it is a moment of time in which all of your struggle with self and it's nasty clamoring to be put first, and struggle with your tongue, hurt feelings of pride, etc., sort of just ceases, and He brings some kind of major victory. There's a verse that describes it that says something like...after you have suffered a while, He will perfect you and establish you. He was working toward it all along but in an instant He gives you victory over all you struggled so hard with for years. You still have temptations, but you don't fall to them. I can only say by my own experience of this that it came almost immediately after a horrible crash in which He showed me that although I thought I was pretty humble, I was nothing of the sort.
Paul was suffering for THEM. He wanted to bring as many to the saving knowledge of Christ as he possibly could. If he didn't have the calling he did from our Lord, he wouldn't have suffered so much from being so well known that they kept finding him and jailing him. He could have moved about in a quiet manner and been in less danger.
As to suffering being part of our walk and not shrinking back from it, this doesn't happen so instantaneously. It's something He gets us to, but like with Israel in the desert, He didn't take them to warring immediately so they wouldn't shrink back in fear and turn around.
We ourselves begin to ask Him to bring the war because we get to the point where we hate the enemies in the land so much and they torment us so much that we want them slain. These giants in the land are those enemies in us that we've been speaking of (pride, arrogance, a tongue that keeps troubling us, etc.)
A
Ariel82
Guest
Is ariel going to be mad that we went backwards again...?
I have enjoyed talking with you guys, as always.
Have to jet, but I'll be back to see what else you come up with with the Spirits help!
Nah just reading/listening to folks thoughts. Will comment more if needed. I don't mind civil conversation as long as everyone is respectful.
A
Ariel82
Guest
Jesus had the Holy Spirit alight in Him like a dove and a voice from Heaven that said "This is my beloved son."
When we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, we hear God tell us we are His beloved child.
I agree...many times we read of the sufferings that Paul went through and think that all Christians should experience the same kind of sufferings but he says he went through these sufferings for preaching the gospel and so that they didn't have to go through the same things.
Paul also said that we are to pray for leaders and those in authority so that we can lead a quiet and godly life without the severe persecution from a government or group of people. We will still have trouble and have people be against us because we are Christians but some don't have to go through what Paul did.
A
Ariel82
Guest
Side note for folks
https://support.biblegateway.com/hc...otes-in-the-NJKV-New-King-James-Version-mean-
We can go more into the wheat and chaff texts when we discuss final judgment?
Still waiting for everyone to finish chewing on the first 3 topics: repentance, faith and baptism.
https://support.biblegateway.com/hc...otes-in-the-NJKV-New-King-James-Version-mean-
( m text doesn't say "and fire" in Matthew 3)
We can go more into the wheat and chaff texts when we discuss final judgment?
Still waiting for everyone to finish chewing on the first 3 topics: repentance, faith and baptism.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
we do? Not sure of this..
Also, Jesus was not baptised in the spirit. He did not need cleansed.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Time to go for the evening, I may be back later.. Thanks for a wonderfu, peacefull (well almost) and non judgmental (well almost) discussion. wink!
A
Ariel82
Guest
Jesus was filled with the HOLY Spirit, which means more than just being cleansed of sins.
And yes, the Holy Spirit tells us we are children of God. Will find the Bible verse.
Roman 8v15
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