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Ali22
Guest
Soon, APA will be publishing their fifth version of the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM) and I'm quite disappointed that there aren't any alternatives to this fictitious book.
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Seems like a rather bold statement without any follow up. Since it was written by professionals with decades in their field it seems rather presumptuous for someone to just come out bold faced and call it fictitious. Fess up, first what qualifies you to say such a thing and second what examples can you cite to support your point. I'm sorry but reading scripture is not a qualification.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
It is bold. What's wrong with boldness in this context?
Ain't no such thing as demon's, because that wouldn't fit with psychology now would it...
also,
inb4 argument from authority.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
To add to my post:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...beliefs-divine-revelations-or-mental-disorder <--- click
Scrupulosity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <--- click
Religion in Bipolar Disorder - Delusions and Increased Activities <--- click
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...beliefs-divine-revelations-or-mental-disorder <--- click
Scrupulosity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <--- click
Religion in Bipolar Disorder - Delusions and Increased Activities <--- click
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Ugly
Guest
*waits for Moment of Faith to jump into this like a rabid badger salivating all over the screen in his excitement.
I have/had? major depressive disorder and OCD. In the past month, through excessive prayer, sacrifice of certain material items, ceasing willful sinning, and reading my bible, my symptoms have improved drastically and rapidly. None of the drugs I was prescribed before had this noticeable of an effect. I have also mentioned the religious nature of my OCD in a few other threads on here. That has all but left me this last week.
This is a very personal experience for me. The changes in me have been drastic. And the experience has been very real and life changing for me. I also have some strange sleep disturbances that have stopped completely. Take it for what you will.
I am not an advocate of all psychological disorders are caused by demons. I have theories on how demons attack. They can create, complicate, or have nothing to do with psychological disorders. They can implant thoughts that masquerade as our own, alter emotional states, create unnatural impulses, and attack physical health.
This is not to say that someone who develops a heart condition at a young age is necessarily under demonic attack, but it's very possible. This is not to say that everyone with a psychological disorder is under an attack, but it's very possibly that they are, and that the symptoms could be worsened by attack. Or it may not be demonic at all.
I think too many Christians deny the fact that demonic entities do in fact work in the world. You can't do this. How can you believe in a God, who came into the flesh, died, and resurrected, but you can't believe that demons may in fact have something to do with what is happening to us? You say that Satan tempts you. How!? He's not there in the flesh in front of you tempting you is he? Could it not be that thoughts of sinning are implanted, or impulses to react to certain outside stimuli are in fact not from you? Wouldn't true temptation make more sense this way?
But you can't leave the nature of our sinful flesh. We are as much responsible for stuff through our own choices, but I don't believe it is all from us. Ultimately it is our own fault, but that's not to say we can't be coaxed into sinning, or that we cannot be attacked.
If you say satan is tempting you through other people, how is he doing it!? Couldn't it be that they are giving into impulses or compulsions to try and get you to sin with them? Think people. They do operate on a level we don't see. But I think its possible to spot their activities. But, like in another thread that was up, you can't blame -everything- on demonic activity. What you can do, is at least be aware of the possibility.
Just my thoughts on it though, and purely opinion.
This is a very personal experience for me. The changes in me have been drastic. And the experience has been very real and life changing for me. I also have some strange sleep disturbances that have stopped completely. Take it for what you will.
I am not an advocate of all psychological disorders are caused by demons. I have theories on how demons attack. They can create, complicate, or have nothing to do with psychological disorders. They can implant thoughts that masquerade as our own, alter emotional states, create unnatural impulses, and attack physical health.
This is not to say that someone who develops a heart condition at a young age is necessarily under demonic attack, but it's very possible. This is not to say that everyone with a psychological disorder is under an attack, but it's very possibly that they are, and that the symptoms could be worsened by attack. Or it may not be demonic at all.
I think too many Christians deny the fact that demonic entities do in fact work in the world. You can't do this. How can you believe in a God, who came into the flesh, died, and resurrected, but you can't believe that demons may in fact have something to do with what is happening to us? You say that Satan tempts you. How!? He's not there in the flesh in front of you tempting you is he? Could it not be that thoughts of sinning are implanted, or impulses to react to certain outside stimuli are in fact not from you? Wouldn't true temptation make more sense this way?
But you can't leave the nature of our sinful flesh. We are as much responsible for stuff through our own choices, but I don't believe it is all from us. Ultimately it is our own fault, but that's not to say we can't be coaxed into sinning, or that we cannot be attacked.
If you say satan is tempting you through other people, how is he doing it!? Couldn't it be that they are giving into impulses or compulsions to try and get you to sin with them? Think people. They do operate on a level we don't see. But I think its possible to spot their activities. But, like in another thread that was up, you can't blame -everything- on demonic activity. What you can do, is at least be aware of the possibility.
Just my thoughts on it though, and purely opinion.
A
aprilandkeion
Guest
1 Peter 5:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
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GraceReborn
Guest
I cannot help but notice that in the Bible,
the people who have had behaviors close to what we now call as
"psychological disorders" were referred to as demon possessed.
the people who have had behaviors close to what we now call as
"psychological disorders" were referred to as demon possessed.
For the professional demonologists (yep there are a few well trained ones out there) the issue of mental disorder and demon possession are two well distinguished problems and the differences can appear to over lap. But far too many 'amateur' demonologists actually endanger themselves when they take on real cases. Usually they eagerly take on the fake cases and proudly proclaim victory when they were not even in the same league. And no I am not a trained demonologist but I have a healthy respect for their discipline.
Someone with a mental disorder does in fact respond to ordinary medical treatment. Simply hearing voices is just not in the same league as some of the exhibitions of real possession. Satan and his demons have great power and must be given their due respect which does not mean they cannot be forced out of their victim, it just means you dont take a peashooter to a gun fight. There are no demons which can be exorcised by spitting them out, that is laughably wrong.
Someone with a mental disorder does in fact respond to ordinary medical treatment. Simply hearing voices is just not in the same league as some of the exhibitions of real possession. Satan and his demons have great power and must be given their due respect which does not mean they cannot be forced out of their victim, it just means you dont take a peashooter to a gun fight. There are no demons which can be exorcised by spitting them out, that is laughably wrong.
They get no respect from me... The fact that I even recognize them in a derogatory manner is more than they are due. Respect means to show admiration and I do not believe we should be admiring them for what they do.
I also don't believe demons can be driven out by priests or professional demonolgist. We can all get rid of them by resisting them. Stop giving way to them in our lives by giving up stuff that binds us to them. Stuff we can't give up without a fight usually. For me it was secular music and video games among other things. Constant prayer repentance.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
I also define fasting in my personal life as not only sacrificing food but other useless items I can easily live without.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Fasting and prayer is in fact part of the respect due when attempting an exorcism, imagine trying it without those two vital ingredients. You just dont think of them in those terms. Humility is one of the other very important attitudes needed to be effective, I suspect that you also follow that advice but again including that is also part of the due respect offered.
The problem seems to come in defining respect. Frankly I would respect a 500 ft cliff and a 2000 bull. Both can kill me quickly. But given the proper respect and training both can be dealt with. Neither of them can take my soul, whereas a demon can. I suspect that you already have a great deal of the needed respect and training. Please let us not get hung up with definitions.
btw the professionals I was referring to were those professionals who deal with demons and all of them that I know of do follow the Christian framework and fasting and prayer is definitely part of their process. I was not referring to the psychologists who mostly deny the presence of demons entirely.
The problem of this thread is confusion between true demon possession and mental illness a subject that is far from obvious and requires great care to distinguish which is which.
The problem seems to come in defining respect. Frankly I would respect a 500 ft cliff and a 2000 bull. Both can kill me quickly. But given the proper respect and training both can be dealt with. Neither of them can take my soul, whereas a demon can. I suspect that you already have a great deal of the needed respect and training. Please let us not get hung up with definitions.
btw the professionals I was referring to were those professionals who deal with demons and all of them that I know of do follow the Christian framework and fasting and prayer is definitely part of their process. I was not referring to the psychologists who mostly deny the presence of demons entirely.
The problem of this thread is confusion between true demon possession and mental illness a subject that is far from obvious and requires great care to distinguish which is which.
That is your interpretation of the scripture. Demonic possession is spiritual. Psychological disorders are mental and physical. Christians suffer from psychological disorders as well as non Christians, and the spirit of satan cannot dwell in the same place as the Holy Spirit.
Also, if someone who suffers from a psychological disorder is spiritual possessed I don't think that medication would even begin to touch the disorder, but it does.
Someone with a psychological disorder may be under oppression, but possession is highly unlikely.
Careful how you label people. This is why there are medical professionals, and diagnosis should be left up to them. Not the average person. Some of those professionals are even Christian.
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Ugly
Guest
Bold argument. Now please back it up with actual proven facts and give it some semblance of credibility. All the other minds that went into that book have so I don't think that's asking too much from someone eager to make a rebuttal.
Actually I wouldn't even mind if the poster was to offer opinions, that would be better than just calling it a fictitious book and leaving it at that. There are so many different ways to go from the OP it is impossible to know for sure without further information.
His opening statement is an opinion. I'd rather see irrefutable facts. Opinions are worthless compared to reality. *feels I removed my Harlan Ellison signature too soon...*
So where is this Ali22? Was that OP just a "drive by shooting" and he zooms off into the horizon without saying anything else?
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Ali22
Guest
There is no concise definition of a mental disorder. My textbook on abnormal psychology says that there are four characteristics of a mental disorder: deviant, distressful, dysfunctional, and dangerous (the last one is an exception). These are known as the four Ds. Notice how subjective they are. For example, if I were to quit full-time school and just focus on achieving enlightenment through meditation while locked in my room for most of the day, then that would be considered deviant (unusual), distressful (since it is an extremely hard practice), and dysfunctional (since I have abandoned my daily activities and remained housebound). Yet this behavior wouldn't be considered a mental disorder. The reason is that the definition of a mental disorder as provided by the DSM is vague. It is not operational. Think about how the APA decides which "mental disorders" to include in the new DSM-V. Believe it or not, they VOTE on it. Pretty objective huh? As Psychiatrist Thomas Szasz once said: "Psychiatry is a branch of the law, not medicine. There is a huge gap between normal behaviors and criminal ones which psychiatry seeks to fill." Honestly, by what objective means can we claim that being narcisistic (self-centered) or avoidant is a personality disorder? Look at schizophrenia - what is considered to be the most psychotic mental illness. It requires at least two out a list of five main symptoms to be diagnosed with such a disorder such as delusion (holding to a false belief despite contrary evidence) and hallucination (perceiving a stimuli that no one in the vicinity can witness). These are very subjective! If a person tells a psychiatrist that he or she is the messenger of Satan or God-incarnate, that he or she would automatically be considered delusional. Why? There is no way we can scientifically verify or falsify such a statement. And what if the same person also told the psychiatrist that he or she hears the voice of a demon demanding worship. He or she would automatically be considered hallucinating. Again, there is no objective way to determine any of these symptoms. I can go on and on but I'll leave it to that. I am studying psychology at Liberty University at the moment and God willingly (I hope I'm not considered delusional for believing in God), I plan to become a psychologist. I am an anti-psychiatrist for I see no objective manner in which we can distinguish between sanity and insanity. Examine the Rosenhan experiment if you're further interested.