Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[legion]

We are talking here not about the Judaic customs and attitudes, but how the Lord differentiated those things, teaching about the commandments leading to eternal life, and about baptism and holy supper, and how the disciples also taught, teaching the repentance, thus doing the law, namely, shunning evils as sins, which is the changing of one's mind, its will and its understanding, and faith in the Lord. In that regard, when the Lord glorified His Human, to which the ceremonials of the Judaic Church pointed, and which it prefiguresd, the ceremonial law was then no longer of any use, everything having be gathered in the Holy Supper, and circumcision replaced with baptism, but the spiritual-moral law was even more deepened, not abrogated, thus the Lord is teaching it together with the faith in Him in the Gospels, and similarly, the disciples. Thus, it was not longer sufficient to simply avoid the formal evils, but the inward ones were to be dealt with, and the neighour was not simply those, whom the Judaic Church believed according to the letter, but was then a more comprehensive concept.

Well I think you're agreeing with me the Mosaic law doesn't apply to Gentiles never did that is the argument I will always stand on

I understand it didn't go away but that's pretty simple we have it in our Bible it'll probably never go away and it probably never get changed since we probably will never find any other ancient documents that show us that there's something different about it

There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that me as a gentile believer should ever be required to do anything in Mosaic law unless of course it was reiterated in the New Testament such as nine of the 10 commandments the Sabbath was excluded because our Sabbath rest is in Jesus whenever we feel like taking it

 

[Inquisitor]

Well I think you're agreeing with me the Mosaic law doesn't apply to Gentiles never did that is the argument I will always stand on

I understand it didn't go away but that's pretty simple we have it in our Bible it'll probably never go away and it probably never get changed since we probably will never find any other ancient documents that show us that there's something different about it

There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that me as a gentile believer should ever be required to do anything in Mosaic law unless of course it was reiterated in the New Testament such as nine of the 10 commandments the Sabbath was excluded because our Sabbath rest is in Jesus whenever we feel like taking it

Just because one or more of the ten commandments (the law) is spoken of in the N.T does not mean, that Gentiles
are under the law. This where most churches are derailed.

One cannot say that a Gentile believer is bound by the law or even the sacraments as the Catholics state.
The Catholics have seven sacraments and the ten commandments and you are bound by both.

Some churches are hardline with the gospel of John the Baptist; you must repent and be water baptized.

Some other churches push the ten commandments to the literal extreme.

Paul's letters are directly written to the Gentile churches and there is a big difference between the Jewish and Gentile
Gospels in the N.T.

One does not develop doctrine based on the Gospel of Matthew, Acts, James, and one or two verses in Romans.

Paul is the authority on church doctrine and Paul alone writes in detail about the church and the Christian life.

Paul's version of the gospel is built on the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life.

 

[legion]

Just because one or more of the ten commandments (the law) is spoken of in the N.T does not mean, that Gentiles
are under the law. This where most churches are derailed.

One cannot say that a Gentile believer is bound by the law or even the sacraments as the Catholics state.
The Catholics have seven sacraments and the ten commandments and you are bound by both.

Some churches are hardline with the gospel of John the Baptist; you must repent and be water baptized.

Some other churches push the ten commandments to the literal extreme.

Paul's letters are directly written to the Gentile churches and there is a big difference between the Jewish and Gentile
Gospels in the N.T.

One does not develop doctrine based on the Gospel of Matthew, Acts, James, and one or two verses in Romans.

Paul is the authority on church doctrine and Paul alone writes in detail about the church and the Christian life.

Paul's version of the gospel is built on the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life.

Okay then we do agree

 

[Soyeong]

I'm done arguing with you because you are so stupid with your theology it is impossible to actually make a point you are stuck on something that will send you to hell good luck

You really believe that following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded will send someone to hell? How is it stupid to take the position that followers of Christ should follow his example?

 

[Genez]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Faith alone justification is logical and practical dysfunction. I.e. It can only justify a person by having faith-alone without works, then how can it work to justify anyone, that is practicing their faith.

Let's look at the logical and practical malfunction of justification by faith-alone without works: 1) It cannot be for people living their faith, since their faith is with works. 2) It be for anyone without works, since no living person can be without works.

1). Since faith-alone is only without works, then no person can have faith-alone with works.

And so, a person can only have faith-alone, when not practicing their faith. Else, their faith is with works, not alone without works.

Therefore, no living person can only be justified by faith-alone with works, and live by their faith. Else they are justified by their faith with works.

Either a person is justified by their faith-alone without works, or by their faith with works, not both: Else alone is no more alone, and works is no more works. As Scripture would say:

For if justification be by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise alone is no more alone. But if faith be with works, then is it no more justification by faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

And so, we conclude that justification by faith-alone without works, is not practical, because faith cannot be practiced, and also justify without works.

The only practical justification for the living, is by faith and with works. Else no living person can ever by justified by faith and live by their faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

2). No living person can have faith-alone without works, since no living person can be without works. The living that do no works at all, is doing an evil work, by not doing good:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Only the dead can do no works at all, and so only the dead can have faith-alone without works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And yet, the dead can have no faith at all, else faith is no more faith, and dead is no more dead.

Conclusion: Justification by faith-alone without works, is so dysfunctional, that not even the dead can practice it, much less the living...

Your very first accepted work was what entered you into faith.
For some, those who get caught up in false teachings, it may be the only work they do.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs ​

I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, ​

but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God ​

the Father has placed his seal of approval.”​

​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

John 6:26-29

'Belief 'is the one work God accepts onto salvation!

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

​

........​

 

[Soyeong]

You and your ilk have ignored the fact of the New Covenant. It's the Covenant sealed in the Blood of God's Lamb, but you prefer the covenant of the blood of animals.

I do not ignore the New Covenant. The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so it is those who ignore the Torah who ignore the New Covenant.

New Covenant means New Law, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ and New Life, only found in Christ.

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow w of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

Your argument that Lord Jesus taught His followers to obey the Law of Moses is false.

Do you think that Jesus was in favor or against his followers doing what the Torah reveals to be wickedness?

Read the sermon on the mount again.

Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount was based on what was taught in the OT.

If all that is necessary to be saved is to obey the law, Lord Jesus died for nothing.

That doesn't follow, but rather the opposite is true. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if our salvation does not require us to be zealous for doing good works, then he died for nothing.

Of course, you know all this. You refuse to accept the truth. You put grace under law. What I say is intended for those who might be persuaded by your legalism.

The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:142), so it is you who refuse to accept the truth. There are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah (Psalm 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Titus 2:14), so I'm not putting grace under law.

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to live for God by obeying the Torah not the other way around.

But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God in contrast with saying that the law of sin held him captive, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that held him captive.

"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12

When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.

God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible, but you act as if what is pleasing to God is our rebellion against His law. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions while the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions denies the trustworthiness of God. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying in Galatians 3:12 that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith.

"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25

Do you think that Christ came to curse us by freeing us to become doers of what the Torah reveals to be wickedness?

The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our salvation or righteousness as the result of our obedience, but that does not mean that our salvation and righteousness do not require us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God for the reasons for which it was given. If someone becomes guilty of breaking the whole law, then they need to repent and to return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

In Romans 8:2-7, Paul said that the Law of the Spirit has free us from the law of sin and death, that Christ freed us from the law of sin so that we might free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God, and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so it is the law of sin that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit, not the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 5-8, so again that is the law that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit. The Torah was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to the Torah as if we are not led by God when we are led by God.

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not sons of God.

The law is the shadow. You can live in the shadows if you wish. I choose to walk in the light of Christ.

The Law of God foreshadows Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that bears false witness against him. The way to walk in the light of Christ is not by rejecting who he is and what he taught, but just the opposite.

 

[legion]

You really believe that following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded will send someone to hell? How is it stupid to take the position that followers of Christ should follow his example?

No I believe following the Mosaic law as a Christian will send you to hell

 

[Soyeong]

No I believe following the Mosaic law as a Christian will send you to hell

Why does it make sense to you to think that someone following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded with send them to hell instead of rebelling against what God has commanded? God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so do you really think that the reason that Jesus came to call sinners to repentance was in order to send them to hell?

 

[Kroogz]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Faith alone justification is logical and practical dysfunction. I.e. It can only justify a person by having faith-alone without works, then how can it work to justify anyone, that is practicing their faith.

Let's look at the logical and practical malfunction of justification by faith-alone without works: 1) It cannot be for people living their faith, since their faith is with works. 2) It be for anyone without works, since no living person can be without works.

1). Since faith-alone is only without works, then no person can have faith-alone with works.

And so, a person can only have faith-alone, when not practicing their faith. Else, their faith is with works, not alone without works.

Therefore, no living person can only be justified by faith-alone with works, and live by their faith. Else they are justified by their faith with works.

Either a person is justified by their faith-alone without works, or by their faith with works, not both: Else alone is no more alone, and works is no more works. As Scripture would say:

For if justification be by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise alone is no more alone. But if faith be with works, then is it no more justification by faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

And so, we conclude that justification by faith-alone without works, is not practical, because faith cannot be practiced, and also justify without works.

The only practical justification for the living, is by faith and with works. Else no living person can ever by justified by faith and live by their faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

2). No living person can have faith-alone without works, since no living person can be without works. The living that do no works at all, is doing an evil work, by not doing good:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Only the dead can do no works at all, and so only the dead can have faith-alone without works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And yet, the dead can have no faith at all, else faith is no more faith, and dead is no more dead.

Conclusion: Justification by faith-alone without works, is so dysfunctional, that not even the dead can practice it, much less the living...

GRACE. You folks do not know GRACE.

Or have completely forgotten it......One is in a BAD spot if they think they can override/overwork HIS GRACE.

 

[Gideon300]

You really believe that following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded will send someone to hell? How is it stupid to take the position that followers of Christ should follow his example?

The problem is that you cannot follow the example of Christ. You would have to go to a cross and be crucified then rise again. Good luck with that. Have you walked on water lately? How about raising people from the dead?

You rely on your works to save you, that is the problem. And by the works of the law, no one shall be justified.

 

[Gideon300]

The Law of God foreshadows Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that bears false witness against him. The way to walk in the light of Christ is not by rejecting who he is and what he taught, but just the opposite.

Believers do not reject Jesus or what He taught. What they do not do is limit the Christian life to a set of rules that they cannot obey anyway. Israel had the Law. What they did not have was grace and life. The letter of the law still kills. If you are trusting in your obedience to the law, you are still dead in trespass and sin.​

 

[Soyeong]

The problem is that you cannot follow the example of Christ. You would have to go to a cross and be crucified then rise again. Good luck with that. Have you walked on water lately? How about raising people from the dead?

You rely on your works to save you, that is the problem. And by the works of the law, no one shall be justified.

We are told to follow Christ's example of refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), so that is what I am speaking in regard to and that is something that we can choose to do.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

Believers do not reject Jesus or what He taught. What they do not do is limit the Christian life to a set of rules that they cannot obey anyway.​

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent t for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and as his followers we are told to follow his example or refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and I agree that believers do not reject what he taught, but there would be no point in Jesus spending his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God if it were something that we can't obey.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as being the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is beyond our ability to obey. For example, it is not the case that it is impossible for you to refrain from committing theft, but rather you can choose to do that.

Israel had the Law. What they did not have was grace and life. The letter of the law still kills.​

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). Jesus also affirmed in Luke 10:25-28 that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments.

If you are trusting in your obedience to the law, you are still dead in trespass and sin.​

God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God for salvation is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God but not in His instructions.

 

[ATG]

For the truth is that the Lord Alone has Merit,

Then none that receive Him have His Merit. He must come without His Merit.

Act 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

He alone is Holy (with Father being in Him, and He in the Father),

And yet a man does not and cannot technically acquire merit for those,, because all merit belongs to the Lord, who is Alone the True Justice and Righteousness.

Then none that receive Him has His holiness and righteousness, and the Scripture is broken, for none of His people are holy and righteous as He.

Lev 20:7
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

1Pe 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1Co 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Jo 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

And so the justification is not kind of passing of the Divine Justice to a man, to become his personal nature, for it is Divine.

Then none that receive Him has His divine nature, and the Scripture is broken:

2Pe 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We do not become Jesus Christ, but anyone that does not personally have His divine nature as He does, does not have Him, nor His Merit, holiness, nor righteousness.

But justification is essentially the regeneration,

It is the regeneration and the faith and the works of regeneration.

that is when a man looks to the Lord and shun evils as sins ascribing all the Merit, everything good to the Lord alone, then the Lord is regenerating a man, and thus comes to Him Himself (with His Father in Him), and dwell with man. So, a man then lives from the Lord, who is Justice.

Now, you are preaching the right gospel: Repentance from dead works and faith must be unto Jesus Christ, because only He is the Holy One of God, and only His meritorious faith and works are justified with God.

And so, the gospel of justification by faith alone without any meritorious works is false, else His gift of meritorious faith and works do not justify anyone. Or, He comes without His Merit.

More dysfunction of faith alone without any meritorious works.

 

[Inquisitor]

I do not ignore the New Covenant. The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so it is those who ignore the Torah who ignore the New Covenant.


Christ set a sinless example for us to follow w of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).


Do you think that Jesus was in favor or against his followers doing what the Torah reveals to be wickedness?


Everything that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount was based on what was taught in the OT.


That doesn't follow, but rather the opposite is true. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if our salvation does not require us to be zealous for doing good works, then he died for nothing.


The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:142), so it is you who refuse to accept the truth. There are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah (Psalm 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Titus 2:14), so I'm not putting grace under law.


We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to live for God by obeying the Torah not the other way around.


In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God in contrast with saying that the law of sin held him captive, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that held him captive.


God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible, but you act as if what is pleasing to God is our rebellion against His law. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions while the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions denies the trustworthiness of God. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying in Galatians 3:12 that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith.



Do you think that Christ came to curse us by freeing us to become doers of what the Torah reveals to be wickedness?



The Law of God was never given as a way of earning our salvation or righteousness as the result of our obedience, but that does not mean that our salvation and righteousness do not require us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God for the reasons for which it was given. If someone becomes guilty of breaking the whole law, then they need to repent and to return to obedience, which is precisely what James was encouraging them to do.


In Romans 8:2-7, Paul said that the Law of the Spirit has free us from the law of sin and death, that Christ freed us from the law of sin so that we might free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of God, and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so it is the law of sin that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit, not the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 5-8, so again that is the law that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit. The Torah was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to the Torah as if we are not led by God when we are led by God.


In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not sons of God.


The Law of God foreshadows Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that bears false witness against him. The way to walk in the light of Christ is not by rejecting who he is and what he taught, but just the opposite.

Your trying to mix the old covenant and the new covenant.

Jesus the Lord introduced the new covenant and the new commandment.

You cannot pour old wine (the law) into new wine skins (the Spirit), Soyeong.

So what did God pour (write) into our hearts?

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit
who was given to us.

That is agape love not self love as the law states.

 

[2Christ]

I'm done arguing with you because you are so stupid with your theology it is impossible to actually make a point you are stuck on something that will send you to hell good luck

I assure you He @Soyeong NOT going to hell, stop speaking nonsense and accusing your brother in Christ.

 

[ATG]

Sure, the way you define faith alone it makes sense.

True. No one need to agree there is a gospel of justification by faith alone without works, in order to know it makes no practical sense. Else who can be justified living their faith with works?

Hab 2:4
For the just shall live by his faith.

But the Reformer definition isn't absent of works as you seem to suggest. Their argument with the Catholic church was over meritorious works.

And the present day OSAS unconditional eternal security is not Luther's reformer gospel of faith, that is only without meritorious Catholic works.

Luther only excluded works made by man from being justified with Christ. Even as Jesus and Paul already excluded from His justification:

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tit 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

OSAS justification by faith alone without works, excludes any works from justifying the man.

That is the dysfunctional gospel being challenged.

Faith Alone doesn't mean Faith without any works whatsoever.

It does in Scripture, where James 2 says so: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This is not a faith that is only without certain works, but a faith alone, that is without any works.

James is not rebuking Jesus, Paul, and Luther's exclusion of works commanded by man, but is rebuking OSAS exclusion of any works by man from justification.

Modern OSAS Christians change the 'meritorious' works in Luther's day from commanded works of men, to any works of men as being unjustified 'meritorious'.

In any case, the answer to the challenge of dysfunctional faith alone justification without works, is obvious. it's difunctionally impractical.

No man can be saved by his faith alone, without having any of his works justifying him...Else all his works are evil, and he has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, or he's dead without any works at all.

 

[ATG]

ATG said:

Other than in James 2, The insertion of faith-alone into any other Scripture of salvation and justification by faith, is only by people adding faith-alone to the Scripture, where it's not written:

Again, not true: I didn’t add anything to the above quoted Scripture, other than an underline and bold print.

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Other than in James 2...

ATG said:

No one can receive Jesus Christ with faith-alone, because Jesus has no faith-alone to give, but only faith to walk as He walked.

Your statement is false!!

If it didn’t exist, why did He express the warning statement “Faith alone is dead” in Scripture??

You need to try harder at reading exactly what people write, so you can respond to that, and not to something else I don't write.

Dead faith alone certainly exists, and James 2 rebukes them that have it.

Jesus just doesn't give any faith alone to save anyone, since faith alone doesn't save anyone.

Yes, this walking in Him is the works, because He is living in you and you in Him.
Otherwise, you’re just a “Christian” on paper, dead to Him in the world of sin; you’re not walking The Way.

Amen, back on track.

ATG said:
We receive Jesus' faith walking with Him, not standing alone doing nothing...Which is not possible in life, and especially not possible with Jesus Christ, who is always doing good:

Again false thinking. As I’ve stated, it is possible to be a hypocrite.

Oops, back off track again. Hypocrites do not have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, that walks with Him and only does good.

They have another faith that does evil in the name of Christ. They have the evil faith of another Christ, not of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

So true!

Yes, Jesus manifested His power doing works.

Amen, back on track in the end!

 

[TruthDefender]

I'm done arguing with you because you are so stupid with your theology it is impossible to actually make a point you are stuck on something that will send you to hell good luck

FYI: Just mute him; I muted Soyeong a long time ago.

A friendly reminder:

“But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭6‬-‭7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Gideon300]

We are told to follow Christ's example of refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), so that is what I am speaking in regard to and that is something that we can choose to do.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent t for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and as his followers we are told to follow his example or refraining from sin (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and I agree that believers do not reject what he taught, but there would be no point in Jesus spending his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God if it were something that we can't obey.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as being the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is beyond our ability to obey. For example, it is not the case that it is impossible for you to refrain from committing theft, but rather you can choose to do that.


In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). Jesus also affirmed in Luke 10:25-28 that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments.


God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God for salvation is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God but not in His instructions.

It is contradictory to live under the Old Covenant when God has replaced it with the New Covenant. It is also an insult to God's grace. I'll say it again: New Covenant, New Law, New Life. You have no clue as to what that means. Why is that?

 

[Proximus]

James 2 Scripture is not justifying and glorifying any proud works of men, but only the works of faith that justified Abraham and Rahab.

We see how trying to exclude all works of merit from justification by God, can even go so far as to speak directly against Scripture, and say that Abraham and Rahab were not justified by works, but by faith only...

In the Revelation it is said that Though Alone is Holy, which means that our God in His Glorified Human is the only holy. It is indeed that in other places other are called holy, but the letter at times speaks in appearance, but in other places the truth genuine traspires. For instance, in some places it is said that the poor are blessed, but another places clarifies that it is those who are poor in spirit, who are implied. Similarly, with regard to God. At some places it is said that God hates, takes revenge, but in another place that God is love, and it is also said there is no darkness, or evil, in Him. Similarly, when the Lord refers to the words "you are gods", while it is known that truly there is only God, and not the others, though in the letter, on which alone the Judaic Church was founding its attitude towards the Lord, it seems that the men can be gods.

So, similarly with the merit, and all good. Men can indeed do good, but they need to understand that without the Lord they cannot do anything. For it is said: "without Me you cannot do anything". This means, I believe, anything good which is truly good, for it is the Lord alone who is good and holy, and all good with men are simply from Him, as the continuous loan.

And to claim for oneself what is the Lord's Own, is to misapply to the loan-gift, and especially to put the pride in it, for what is the Lord's should be attributed to the Lord, and He alone should be thanked for his bounties.

In that regard, a man indeed acquires the faith on his own, and yet attributes it to the Lord (when it is the genuine, and not some learned traditional fake doctrinal of some kind), and the good of charity especially, for it is the Lord's Own. Those things are indeed appearing to a man as if they were his own, for he is enjoying them as his own, but when he thinks of those, he is grateful to the Lord for those, understading their origin and belonging, and yet is not forgetful of those.

So, the Lord is not saving the man on account of the things that he ascribed to himself, but on acount of following the Lord's Will, and thus on account of him becoming able to accept the heavenly kingdom within, when the satan and devil, or the evils and falses were cast out, and then when a man is delighting in the good and truth with both his internal and external man.