Early church fathers believed we can lose salvation?

[Hizikyah]

I see your a sabbath keeper. The sabbath keepers always had a hatred for the RCC just look at the SDAs..

yes the SDA do expose some RC error, but I see the SDA are a protesting daughter just like the rest.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Come out of her, My people, so that you do not partake in her sins, and so that you do not receive of her plagues, For her sins have reached acunto heaven, and Yahweh has remembered her iniquities!

Phillipians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven, out from which we also eagerly wait for our Ruler, Yahshua Messiah the King."

Ezekiyl 48:35, "The distance around the city will be eighteen thousand measures; and the name of the city from that day will be: YAHWEH SHAMMAH! (Yahweh Is There)"

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Hebrews 13:14
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

John (Yahchanan) 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166. poimén)."

 

[Chopper]

Here's an update to a picture I had made before... might help bring in a little more understanding?

 

[yogosans14]

Think I will trust the bible...I hate those who called them self Apostles but was clearly not!

yes the SDA do expose some RC error, but I see the SDA are a protesting daughter just like the rest.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Come out of her, My people, so that you do not partake in her sins, and so that you do not receive of her plagues, For her sins have reached acunto heaven, and Yahweh has remembered her iniquities!

Phillipians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven, out from which we also eagerly wait for our Ruler, Yahshua Messiah the King."

Ezekiyl 48:35, "The distance around the city will be eighteen thousand measures; and the name of the city from that day will be: YAHWEH SHAMMAH! (Yahweh Is There)"

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Hebrews 13:14
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

John (Yahchanan) 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166. poimén)."

You do realize Babylon the great in revelation is the Roman Empire, right?almost every scholar agrees.

 

[Mitspa]

Acts 8:29-35New International Version (NIV)

29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[a]
34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.


What does verse 31 say?

Well we have the New Testament now...and don't have to search the Old Testament to see New Testament truth. Besides that the bible tells us in ABSOLUTE terms we don't need any man teach us because the Holy Spirit is our teacher...you have the Holy Spirit?

 

[PennEd]

Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false. Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible. Luther opened a "Pandora's Box" when he insisted that the Bible could be interpreted by individuals and that It is the sole authority of Christianity. Why do we have over 20,000 different non-Catholic Christian denominations? The reason is individuals' "different" interpretations of the Bible.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Umm... It doesn't say "ask the pope daily to see what his latest take is in on Scripture"

 

[Chopper]

Well we have the New Testament now...and don't have to search the Old Testament to see New Testament truth. Besides that the bible tells us in ABSOLUTE terms we don't need any man teach us because the Holy Spirit is our teacher...you have the Holy Spirit?

Are you kidding us?
Aside from the apostles who walked with Him, even the Messiah Himself quoted from the Old Covenant within the new.
To ignore the old is not a very wise thing to do.

 

[yogosans14]

Think I will trust the bible...I hate those who called them self Apostles but was clearly not!

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Umm... It doesn't say "ask the pope daily to see what his latest take is in on Scripture"

But under the pope there's still one United catholic church not 5363534 denomations

 

[tribesman]

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

One of the reasons I'm considering becoming catholic Is the early church fathers literally disagree with every Protestant doctrine!go ahead and call me a troll idc I'm not

Yes, some early church fathers did believe that. They also believed strange things about the deity of Christ and some denied the trinity. But they were right just because they were "early"?

 

[SeaBass]

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Umm... It doesn't say "ask the pope daily to see what his latest take is in on Scripture"

Eph 3:3,4
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Understand just by reading, no Catholic clergy required.

 

[yogosans14]

Think I will trust the bible...I hate those who called them self Apostles but was clearly not!

Yes, some early church fathers did believe that. They also believed strange things about the deity of Christ and some denied the trinity. But they were right just because they were "early"?

Mind providing quotes for those statements?some of those church fathers walked and ate with the apostles!

 

[yogosans14]

Think I will trust the bible...I hate those who called them self Apostles but was clearly not!

Eph 3:3,4
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Understand just by reading, no Catholic clergy required.

Weren't you the one Claiming anyone who disagreed with your interpretation would go to Hell?lol

 

[prove-all]

Well we have the New Testament now...and don't have to search the Old Testament to see New Testament truth. Besides that the bible tells us in ABSOLUTE terms we don't need any man teach us because the Holy Spirit is our teacher...you have the Holy Spirit?

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

​

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way:
chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

​

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be
the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

what are the oracles of God and where can you find them?​

 

[SeaBass]

2 Cor 1:13 "For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and understand."

 

[Mitspa]

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

​

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way:
chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

​

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be
the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

what are the oracles of God and where can you find them?​

Right and why did they fail?

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[tribesman]

Mind providing quotes for those statements?some of those church fathers walked and ate with the apostles!

If you are just in basic knowledge about the controversies in early church history you would know that men like Noetus, Praxeas, Sabellius and Arius were disputing the trinity or/and the deity of Christ. Yes, these were condemned as heretics, but they were still early. Then we had also nestorianism, also early. It took some centuries for the christian dogma to be articulated, Augustine being instrumental to that end.

 

[Kaycie]

I only go by the bible. But yes, Paul says in the bible that even he has to run the race in such a way that he will not be disqualified for the prize (salvation). (1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

 

[SeaBass]

Jn 5:39 Jesus told His hearers to "Search the scriptures", "Or have ye not read in the law" Mt 12:5 which requires them to read and understand and make private interpretation for themselves.

Mk 12:37 "David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly."

"Common folk" could hear and understand/interpret the meaning of Jesus' words.


[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][h=2]What the Bible says[/h][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][h=2]What the Bible does NOT say[/h][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"These things I am writing to you that you may know that you have eternal life..." (1 John 5:13).
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"These things I am writing to you that when you obtain the infallible interpretations thereof you may know that you have eternal life..."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...The things I am writing to you are the Lord's commandments." (1 Cor. 14:37).
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...The things I am writing to you when officially interpreted are the Lord's commandments."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...As you reading, my understand may knowledge in the mystery of Christ..." (Eph. 3:4 Douay-Rheims Version)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...As you reading, and have officially interpreted, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...The Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2 Tim. 3:15)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...The Sacred Writings, which when infallibly interpreted are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...With meekness receive the ingrafted word which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"...With meekness receive the infallible interpretations of the ingrafted word which is able to save your soul."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]"And the dead were judged by what was written in the books..." (Rev. 20:12 Catholic Edition RSV)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]"And the dead were judged by what was written in the books in accord with the infallible interpretations thereof."
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Is the Catholic church an infallible interpreter of scripture?

 

[Mitspa]

Are you kidding us?
Aside from the apostles who walked with Him, even the Messiah Himself quoted from the Old Covenant within the new.
To ignore the old is not a very wise thing to do.

Well who said ignore? but the fact is we are not under the Old Covenant, and we have the New,(written in the Blood of Christ) we have the gospel and the clear Imagine of God through Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[Hizikyah]

I wonder if people going astray allowed satan to deceive humans? wonder what those dark ages were about? seems if the people would have listened to YHWH's Instructions the whole time we would not be in this situation.... but others like to blame it on the Instructions....

Romans 8:5-8 (ESV), "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[SeaBass]

Mind providing quotes for those statements?some of those church fathers walked and ate with the apostles!

These so called "church fathers" contradicted each other and contradicted the bible on various issues.


There also are abuses associated with these writings (of the "church fathers"). For example, the Roman Church treats many of these documents as if they were inspired of God. “Tradition,” they say, “is a source of theological teaching distinct from Scripture, and . . . is infallible” (Donald Attwater, A Catholic Dictionary, New York: MacMillan, 1961, 41). Invariably, when a Catholic scholar cannot sustain his doctrinal position by the Bible, he will appeal to the testimony of the “church fathers.” For example, in his popular book, The Question Box (San Francisco: Catholic Truth Society, 1929, 135), Bertrand Conway cited Irenaeus (Against Heresies III.III) in an effort to prove the Catholic dogma of apostolic succession. But the post-apostolic writers were not inspired. They never claimed to be. They frequently contradict one another, and especially the New Testament.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1315-church-fathers-benefits-and-abuses-the
Wayne Jackson