Early church fathers believed we can lose salvation?

[mikeuk]

Do you think it is possible for some to get so strung up by the letter of doctrine they lose sight of the heart of the Gospel-what really matters?

The biblical requirement to be a Christian seems a far more simple-and less convoluted theology/doctrine than has evolved over the centuries me thinks

I do. Pharisees were accused of much the same, being so obsessed by detail of law, that love of god and neighbour somehow slipped through their fingers.

 

[mikeuk]

It is an indisputable fact.

​

God bless.

If OSAS and similar were indisputable, why do so many dispute it? They all believe they have spirit on their side, all believing they are part of the "you" that have understanding, not the "they" who do not understand? Since all are certain, it is clearly disputable. The thousand fractures and splinter groups in protestantism testament to some of the disputes.
Too much has been devoted to this issue on this forum, so I for one will withdraw from it.

And god bless you and yours.

 

[Utah]

In 12 to 24 hours yogsans14 will convert from Catholicism to Assembly of God....

That just made me laugh! Why did that make me laugh? I have no idea but that struck me as funny!

 

[Utah]

Pope John Paul II advocated the veneration of Mary as part of the Godhead -- the mediatress of all grace. You want to join that church? There's strength in numbers, and the same can be said about wisdom. So much for your condescending attitude towards Protestant denominations.

 

[john832]

I see your a sabbath keeper. The sabbath keepers always had a hatred for the RCC just look at the SDAs..

Uh, I believe it was the other way around. it wasn't the Sabbath keepers who held an Inquisition.

 

[kennethcadwell]

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

One of the reasons I'm considering becoming catholic Is the early church fathers literally disagree with every Protestant doctrine!go ahead and call me a troll idc I'm not

Just because you don't believe in OSAS is not a good reason to join a certain church, and especially the catholic church which also teaches some unbiblical doctrine as well. That and plus not all denominations that are not catholic side with OSAS, as their are some out their that disagree with this theology. The epistle of Jude points a big damper on that doctrine, and when reading Jude one has to take Exodus 32:33 into account as well for they go hand and hand.
The whole epistle of Jude is talking about eternal life/salvation and uses the Exodus for an example of those of were once saved that then turned their back on God were destroyed and blotted out of His book of Life...

 

[oldthennew]

Protestantism is,

catholisism minus luther's objections, then, (there is God's Truth).....

 

[notuptome]

The Gospel of repent, believe the son of God died for your sins, repent of your sin and ask him into your life as Lord and Saviour and be saved, I agree is a simple Gospel

But once saved, there is sharp disagreement, as seen on these kind of websites as to what it takes to remain saved.

Mostly by those who were never saved by grace in the first place. You cannot surrender only part of your life to Christ. It is all or nothing. If you lie to Jesus and harbor in your heart your most precious sin you will not be saved. You cannot hold back anything nor would you desire to do so when you see yourself as lost and bound to bust hell wide open when you hit there.

Salvation is a heart matter not a head matter. When one realizes that they absolutely deserve to go to hell for all of eternity they will recalculate the value of sin verses humility before Christ. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convince of sin, righteousness and judgment. Apart from this confrontation a man cannot be saved.

Many pretend to be saved but they believe that they only need a little help to get by heavens gate. They are tares who will be separated from the wheat and burned.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV / 42 helpful votes

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Religious but lost. They are pretenders and not possessors.

God said He would not strive with man forever but He will give them up to the reprobate heart. God will harden their hearts and they can only look for certain judgment. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

One of the reasons I'm considering becoming catholic Is the early church fathers literally disagree with every Protestant doctrine!go ahead and call me a troll idc I'm not

You have made a very good assessment. I did the same thing 18 years ago as a Protestant, but I also rejected Roman Cathlicisim since they made many changes to the meaning of scripture since they broke from the Church in the 11th century.

I became Orthodox and have not found a single contradiction that so man Protestants claim. In fact, I found it wholly in alignment and eliminated a lot of paradoxes, huge contradictions and many just false teachings that I had as a Protestant.

I urge you to continue to be a true Berean and study both the history of the Church and the theological history of the Church.

 

[Cassian]

On 7 March 321, Constantine I, Rome's first Christian Emperor (see Constantine I and Christianity), decreed that Sunday would be observed as the Roman day of rest:[5]

On (the venerable Day of the Sun) let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.

The Catholic Encyclopedia reported:

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.


I believe the cathloc church been wrong from the start

what seal or mark does God give, or sabbath day is

Your understanding is a bit skewed of Church history.
Christians from the very beginning, which is recorded in Acts, worshipped at three different places and times. In scripture it is noted that Peter and Paul, and history records a general practice in Jerusalem that they would meet there of prayers on the hours. The Eucharist was only held in Church Homes from the beginning. Outside of Jerusalem they used the Synagogues and worshipped with the Jews.

Temple use stopped with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. From this time forward to the next Jewish/Roman war of 135-139 Jews began to persecute Christians and began to evict then from using the Synagogues. After the second Jewish/Roman war, Christians were barred by the Jews and also was specifically sought out for persecution again by the Romans.

There were very few Church buildings primarily because of constant persecution and destruction of them, that they continued to meet in home. They now met exclusively on Sundays. Almost 200 years before Constantine. Constantine simply made Christianity legal first, and at the close of his reign made it an official religion of the Roman Empire. Constantine had nothing to do with establishing Sunday as the worship day for Christians.

 

[Cassian]

Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false. Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible. Luther opened a "Pandora's Box" when he insisted that the Bible could be interpreted by individuals and that It is the sole authority of Christianity. Why do we have over 20,000 different non-Catholic Christian denominations? The reason is individuals' "different" interpretations of the Bible.

It appears that you are one that has taken their head out of the sand. Your statement is absolutely historically accurate.
It is this drastic personal freedom that Luther saw would be the deathknell for the Reformation movement. This is precisely when denominations were born, based on so called the educated theologians interpretation whereby others would join the denomination closest to their understanding. This lasted about 400 years when in the early 20th century denominations began to grow prolifically and today new ones are starting like amebas. What Luther forsaw, is now a full blown phenomenon of basically personal philosophies with ideas taken from scripture. Which is why everyone is different and really has nothing to do with what scripture actually means and has meant from the beginning.

They are personal ideologies. No one knows what another Christian believes because there are so many varieties and choices and if dissatisfied with any of them, just create your own.

 

[Cassian]

No anybody who can read can understand it...you don't need a pope or some prophet to tell you what it clearly says.

Only if you desire to have a personalized religion based on you very own construction. The fact that over 500 years now, no one has been able to interpret scriptures as you claim and have it mean the same as it was understood in the early Church.
Some have some Truth, some have none.

 

[The_highwayman]

Only if you desire to have a personalized religion based on you very own construction. The fact that over 500 years now, no one has been able to interpret scriptures as you claim and have it mean the same as it was understood in the early Church.
Some have some Truth, some have none.

I guess the Holy Spirit means nothing to you.....

 

[MarcR]

But that is to deny the origin of the Canon! The new testament (as a book, rather than covenant) was defined by a council.
So do you accept the new testament is indeed the infallible word? And how so if you distrust its origin?

I have to say I do not understand the rest? Who do you say rejects the Canon? Who adds to it? Perhaps you mean Luther took it upon himself to do some "editing" of it, indeed declaring an epistle as an "epistle of straw" , because it did not conform to his thinking rather than him conform to it. Dangerous ground indeed! Although even he respected the catholic church, credited it with the Canon of scripture, and never actually wanted a schism!

As I say in my post to Michael. Are we really all so different, when we look back to the creed, the core of catholic belief?

Mikeuk,

In my opinion, the distinction between Christianity, and that which falsely represents itself as Christianity is the authority of Scripture. To a true Christian, the 66 books of the Nicene Cannon are the absolute standard of authority; and ANYTHING that contradicts Scripture whether from pope or layman is either a lie or an error.

 

[Cassian]

I guess the Holy Spirit means nothing to you.....

He means much more than you give Him. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is actually giving you and all sola scripturists all these different interpretions, you also do not have the Holy Spirit of Scripture.
The Holy Spirit does not give new revelation to individuals. He gave His Revelation to man, ONCE, Jude3. He gave it to tdisciples/Apostles. He would guide them into all Truth. The Apostles with Christ are the foundation of the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church, not each individual. The Holy Spirit resides within the Body to guard and preserve both. He is not going to give it again, surely not in the chaotic, confused, divided sola scripturist melieu.

Besides that Christ promised that the Gospel would be unified as He is with the Father. He also promised to preserve His Church and the revelation (Gospel) entrusted to it.

Show me anywhere in scripture that states individual man will be the recipient of additional revelation or even that man is the determiner of Truth, or that individual man has the authority to interpret a text that became the Bible which is only the written portion of what He gave.

The Bible is not a systematic theological treatise. It is not a source of ideas. It is a witness to the Truth, it is NOT the Truth.

 

[Cassian]

Mikeuk,

In my opinion, the distinction between Christianity, and that which falsely represents itself as Christianity is the authority of Scripture. To a true Christian, the 66 books of the Nicene Cannon are the absolute standard of authority; and ANYTHING that contradicts Scripture whether from pope or layman is either a lie or an error.

Which only means that each person constructs his own philosophical idealogy and all others are false. This has worked at a grand scale for 500 years. The ONLY authority in sola scriptura is man, not scripture.
Outside of your personal interpretation lies error.

 

[Mitspa]

Mind providing quotes for those statements?some of those church fathers walked and ate with the apostles!

There is no evidence of that,,,and Judas walk with the Lord also...but what was he?

 

[Mitspa]

Only if you desire to have a personalized religion based on you very own construction. The fact that over 500 years now, no one has been able to interpret scriptures as you claim and have it mean the same as it was understood in the early Church.
Some have some Truth, some have none.

What? Well probably because they believe as you seem to? That you need some man to tell you what words really mean and which ones you can believe. But for those who have the Spirit of truth and can believe evident words...the bible is a very simple book to read and understand with some sincerity and faith. The bible itself says in absolute terms that "you need no man teach you" ...do you believe the bible or some man?

 

[Mitspa]

If that were so , how do you account for the myriad of mutually exclusive views on any topic from salvation, real presence, baptism and so on. All of these people hold opposite views with equal passion and conviction. So authority is certainly needed!

That is in essence why protestantism has fractured into thousands of pieces: whenever a serious disagreement springs up on doctrine, the congregation fractures, and people then choose the congregation that conformst to their beliefs. And that is a problem, because all should conform to the one definition of truth, the chruch shoudl not conform to them.. In one of luthers letters he expresses exasperation at every tom dick and harry deciding on truth, although I would have to search to find it again!

Longevity of constancy of doctrinal view should be the hallmark of the true church, yet only one denomination has had that for millenia! It is clearly stated in scripture that "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" - notice the church not scritpure. It is hard to believe that one small splinter of a protestant faction set up in the last few decades even, can claim to be that pillar!

Why? Because people believe men instead of the bible...that's why everyone gets so confused! Read and believe the instructions ...not some dude in religious garb that tells you that you must have him tell you what he wants you to believe.