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R
formlessness and voidness are not necessarily bad... a shapeless piece of clay is not bad...it just hasn't been molded yet... and a blank sheet of paper is not bad...it just hasn't been written on...
maybe God created it in a formless and void state so that he could begin building it from pure raw materials...after all he made dust before he made adam out of dust...
maybe God created it in a formless and void state so that he could begin building it from pure raw materials...after all he made dust before he made adam out of dust...
R
the hebrew word there is 'toledoth'...which is better translated as 'account'
the meaning of 'toledoth' was clarified by the excavation of the ancient city of ebla...the word 'toledoth' was used to label cuneiform tablets in a library of records...specifically identifying either the author or the subject of the tablet...
so for example 'toledoth noah' in genesis 6 meant something like 'record of noah' or possibly even 'record written by noah'
in genesis 2:4 it means the record of the heavens and the earth when they were created...it is actually worded in such a way that the reader is led to think of the account as the 'testimony' given by the heavens and the earth...
the meaning of 'toledoth' was clarified by the excavation of the ancient city of ebla...the word 'toledoth' was used to label cuneiform tablets in a library of records...specifically identifying either the author or the subject of the tablet...
so for example 'toledoth noah' in genesis 6 meant something like 'record of noah' or possibly even 'record written by noah'
in genesis 2:4 it means the record of the heavens and the earth when they were created...it is actually worded in such a way that the reader is led to think of the account as the 'testimony' given by the heavens and the earth...
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A
Well I guess it just depends on what version of the Bible you are using. Because in the Masoteric text, it's not there. And again, in Hebrew, the word "was" always means became. And you still cannot show me an example of the word was that fits your interpretation anywhere in the Old Testament! If I'm wrong, then why can't you just point it out in verse 2 of Genesis chapter 1?? Especially using your expertise in Hebrew.
First off I already quoted Origen who lived in the second century AD on Gap Theory. The Pes-hita, Midrash and Targum all say the Earth became ruined. Yet you just ignore these points. Furthermore, Thomas Chalmers, the first scholar to publish on Gap Theory in the 19th century, wrote it 18 years before Darwin. So again it has nothing to do with "adapting" to science.
First off I already quoted Origen who lived in the second century AD on Gap Theory. The Pes-hita, Midrash and Targum all say the Earth became ruined. Yet you just ignore these points. Furthermore, Thomas Chalmers, the first scholar to publish on Gap Theory in the 19th century, wrote it 18 years before Darwin. So again it has nothing to do with "adapting" to science.
R
i was quoting from the masoretic text...it -is- there...do you even bother fact checking your claims or are you just making stuff up as you go along?
and the whole point of that quotation was that genesis 2:25 is an example of the hebrew verb 'hayah' meaning 'was/were' and -not- became
origen didn't actually believe in the gap theory...he believed in the preexistence of souls on a spiritual plane similar to the platonic 'world of forms'...and that the current creation was the first and only physical universe God made...
anyway origen was a heretic... he taught that angels and demons and human souls were once the same type of spiritual being...which were later differentiated only by the degree to which they lost their love for God while residing on that platonic spiritual plane...and he taught that our condition in this life was decided by what we did in that spiritual state of preexistence...
appealing to origen for doctrinal support is like quoting from the book of mormon to defend your belief...and anyone who knows anything about origen knows that he got these ideas from pagan greek platonic philosophy...which doesn't contradict my point about the pagan roots of gap theory and anything resembling it...
the targums and pesh-itta are both very loose paraphrases of the hebrew and greek texts...mistranslations and alterations are common in both of them... appealing to them is like appealing to the message bible when you should be doing your study in the original languages...
the midrashim are basically jewish fictional embellishments of the biblical account...appealing to them is like quoting from 'the prince of egypt' movie when you should be relying on the bible alone...
and finally the secular scientific idea that the earth is very old did not start with darwin...it actually started with hutton in the early 1700s...decades before chalmers... chalmers was trying to reconcile the bible with secular science...and he even said so...
and the whole point of that quotation was that genesis 2:25 is an example of the hebrew verb 'hayah' meaning 'was/were' and -not- became
origen didn't actually believe in the gap theory...he believed in the preexistence of souls on a spiritual plane similar to the platonic 'world of forms'...and that the current creation was the first and only physical universe God made...
anyway origen was a heretic... he taught that angels and demons and human souls were once the same type of spiritual being...which were later differentiated only by the degree to which they lost their love for God while residing on that platonic spiritual plane...and he taught that our condition in this life was decided by what we did in that spiritual state of preexistence...
appealing to origen for doctrinal support is like quoting from the book of mormon to defend your belief...and anyone who knows anything about origen knows that he got these ideas from pagan greek platonic philosophy...which doesn't contradict my point about the pagan roots of gap theory and anything resembling it...
the targums and pesh-itta are both very loose paraphrases of the hebrew and greek texts...mistranslations and alterations are common in both of them... appealing to them is like appealing to the message bible when you should be doing your study in the original languages...
the midrashim are basically jewish fictional embellishments of the biblical account...appealing to them is like quoting from 'the prince of egypt' movie when you should be relying on the bible alone...
and finally the secular scientific idea that the earth is very old did not start with darwin...it actually started with hutton in the early 1700s...decades before chalmers... chalmers was trying to reconcile the bible with secular science...and he even said so...
C
I am convinced the angels existed before day one. I also lean in favor of the idea that they fell before day one. I think God calling the creation or recreation good does not apply to Satan and his angels, just applies to the earth and all the flesh beings within it.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
trying to fit in the fall of Satan after day one (because he had fell by time the serpent deceived Adam and Eve) is trying to fit too much into a short period of time in my opinion.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
trying to fit in the fall of Satan after day one (because he had fell by time the serpent deceived Adam and Eve) is trying to fit too much into a short period of time in my opinion.
N
yes but
there is sicientific evidence that the speed of light is slowing down
there is also scientific evidence that the uniuverse is expanding in every direction from the earth
it is also very difficult to accurately calculate the distance using the triangulation methould as one side of the triangle is so small in relation to the other 2 sides therfore a very small angular mistake can make a huge distance mistake
considering no one has been around for 2.5million years or is able to monitor light from its star to earth the other methoulds cannot be verified
i am covinced that the earth is about 6000 years old as can be calculated from the bible
for scientific reasons such as the moon is moving away from the earth therefore it was once closer this can be calculated 6000 years is fine however if you go to millions and millions of years the moon is so close that i would no longer be in orbit(ie it would be sitting on the earth)
Nath
This is extremely speculative, there isn't any real evidence to support this claim. Barry Setterfield (a creationist) just up and claimed it one day with no experimental evidence. And it has yet to have any proof put up to support it.
Yes, everything is expanding, and increasing in speed as it expands. But Earth is not the central point of the expansion. Not even close.
That is why for object with vast distances, we use Redshift and Hubbles law. Yes, it is true that those great distances require so theoretically mathematics. But triangulation, or the parallax method is used for only nearby systems, and is extremely accurate.
For distances inbetween, there are other, very accurate methods.
Lack of observation does not validate dismissing universal constants. There is no reason to believe that observable laws were any different before we were around to see them.
Also, we don't need to go back 2.5 million years to blow the 6,000 years theory out of the water. Just look at the ice pulls from Antarctica, were they routinely find layers that show over 100,000 summers have passed in the seasonal layers.
People used to use the Bible to justify the Earth being flat, and the non-existence of dinosaurs. People used to be punished severely for saying that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
You realize that is probably true right? It is pretty commonly believed that the moon broke off from us.
Yes, everything is expanding, and increasing in speed as it expands. But Earth is not the central point of the expansion. Not even close.
That is why for object with vast distances, we use Redshift and Hubbles law. Yes, it is true that those great distances require so theoretically mathematics. But triangulation, or the parallax method is used for only nearby systems, and is extremely accurate.
For distances inbetween, there are other, very accurate methods.
Lack of observation does not validate dismissing universal constants. There is no reason to believe that observable laws were any different before we were around to see them.
Also, we don't need to go back 2.5 million years to blow the 6,000 years theory out of the water. Just look at the ice pulls from Antarctica, were they routinely find layers that show over 100,000 summers have passed in the seasonal layers.
People used to use the Bible to justify the Earth being flat, and the non-existence of dinosaurs. People used to be punished severely for saying that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
You realize that is probably true right? It is pretty commonly believed that the moon broke off from us.
It is interesting that all natural chronometers assume uniformitarianism which allows them to extrapolate based on current observations.
And yet these same pseudoscientists will deny uniformitarianism when it comes to explaining how a chemical precipitate, such as limestone, which has a deposition rate of one foot every 2250 years, could have formed the Grand Canyon in a flood event!
And yet these same pseudoscientists will deny uniformitarianism when it comes to explaining how a chemical precipitate, such as limestone, which has a deposition rate of one foot every 2250 years, could have formed the Grand Canyon in a flood event!
The moon didnt just pop out of the earth in its present form, it most likely happened in the early formation of the earth, but no, I don't think life was possible in those conditions.
As for how and when life started on earth, there is alot of presuming there. So nobody can really say for sure. There are a couple of good theories such as the iron-sulfer world theory, and the RNA world hypothesis. But no clear cut answer.
The earliest recovered fossil records are microbs from about 3.5 billion years ago, and their line can be traced pretty much without interruption back to that point. Lab test have shown how protobiots can be constructed from basic chemical compounds in the right conditions, and this may very well have been the first step.
I want to be clear here, that I do believe in God, I'm not an Atheist. But I also believe that these scientific findings are valid. There is no reason to believe that God wouldn't make it possible for us to answer these types of questions. I believe that God has put a great amount of order to the universe, and there isn't any reason for us to believe that he would break natural laws in order to build the earth and the universe. Science is just what God has allowed us to learn about the world around us.
What I don't believe is that God just poofed everything into existence the way it is today. Not to say that he couldn't have, but why make things appear different then they are? Wouldn't God be beyond deceiving us?
As for how and when life started on earth, there is alot of presuming there. So nobody can really say for sure. There are a couple of good theories such as the iron-sulfer world theory, and the RNA world hypothesis. But no clear cut answer.
The earliest recovered fossil records are microbs from about 3.5 billion years ago, and their line can be traced pretty much without interruption back to that point. Lab test have shown how protobiots can be constructed from basic chemical compounds in the right conditions, and this may very well have been the first step.
I want to be clear here, that I do believe in God, I'm not an Atheist. But I also believe that these scientific findings are valid. There is no reason to believe that God wouldn't make it possible for us to answer these types of questions. I believe that God has put a great amount of order to the universe, and there isn't any reason for us to believe that he would break natural laws in order to build the earth and the universe. Science is just what God has allowed us to learn about the world around us.
What I don't believe is that God just poofed everything into existence the way it is today. Not to say that he couldn't have, but why make things appear different then they are? Wouldn't God be beyond deceiving us?
I wasnt trying to be factual, 
just sharing one of the many theories that are out there, not saying this one was correct. This same program claimed we came from aliens.
But another theory to consider, the earth was formed by electrical static drawing debri from space.
So the materials exsisted already from before creation of the earth.
So how can one properly call testing rocks that exsisted prior to earth's creation, and were brought together in creation of the earth, accurate by dating?
I'm not claiming to say this is an answer, just looking to the question.
I know only what we are called to believe in faith, for God gave us His word and understanding of creation.
There are so many things in scripture that cannot be explained, miricals, parting the red sea, stopping time, Jesus's resurection, all explained in scripture, even though many seek a plausible or scientific explanation.
It seems to me that questioning wether creation occered as said in scripture, vs man's scientific understanding, is splitting hairs when compared to the faith, hope and love we are called to through faith in Jesus.
Just my thoughts though.
God bless
pickles
just sharing one of the many theories that are out there, not saying this one was correct. This same program claimed we came from aliens. But another theory to consider, the earth was formed by electrical static drawing debri from space.
So the materials exsisted already from before creation of the earth.
So how can one properly call testing rocks that exsisted prior to earth's creation, and were brought together in creation of the earth, accurate by dating?
I'm not claiming to say this is an answer, just looking to the question.
I know only what we are called to believe in faith, for God gave us His word and understanding of creation.
There are so many things in scripture that cannot be explained, miricals, parting the red sea, stopping time, Jesus's resurection, all explained in scripture, even though many seek a plausible or scientific explanation.
It seems to me that questioning wether creation occered as said in scripture, vs man's scientific understanding, is splitting hairs when compared to the faith, hope and love we are called to through faith in Jesus.
Just my thoughts though.
God bless
pickles