Earth still shifting? Pacific Ocean's gap closing in?

[Tintin]

If the majority believe something, it must be true! LOL. But I thought truth was relative?

 

[didymos]

(...) But I thought truth was relative?

If that's the truth, that truth is relative aswell.
So there must me something like an absolute truth.

 

[Tintin]

Exactly! There has to be a standard by which truth is measured. Therefore, to claim something is truth or a lie, a non-Christian has to borrow from the Christian faith.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

As for the notion that flood myths that differ from Genesis are "deviations," there's far more evidence that the Genesis flood itself, and much of Genesis as a whole, was heavily inspired by earlier Mesopotamian literature. Tablets associated with Atra-Hasis and the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance, have well-documented textual similarities to the Genesis narrative, and both substantially predate Genesis. The Babylonian Enuma Elis, to an extent, also shares notable similarities with the Genesis narrative.

while there are ancient mesopotamian tablets predating the oldest extant copies of genesis...there is one giveaway that shows that the genesis creation and flood stories originated before the mesopotamian versions...

if you look at genesis 2...you will see that the bible names four rivers branching out from eden...the pishon and gihon and tigris and euphrates... the tigris and euphrates are easily identified as the same tigris and euphrates that have been known since ancient times... the pishon and gihon rivers have been more difficult to identify...

the gihon is probably the karun river which still flows east from the junction of the tigris and euphrates rivers...more of a case of 'forgotten identity' than anything else...

the pishon on the other hand was a much more interesting problem...it was not persuasively identified until modern times...when the dry channels known today as wadi al-batin and wadi al-rummah were discovered to be the remains of a single major river that once flowed through the same region the pishon flowed through in the bible...this river evidently dried up as part of the desertification of the region in 'prehistoric' times...

so today the four rivers of genesis 2 are more or less conclusively identified...we know they existed at some point in the very distant past...

now here is the point...the ancient mesopotamian myths only mention the tigris and euphrates...so they date from a time -after- the pishon dried up and the identity of the gihon faded into obscurity...whereas the genesis history must originate from a time -before- these rivers were forgotten...

it makes sense for the mesopotamian myths to have been 'rewrites' of the genesis history...and in the process of 'rewriting' omitted the two rivers that were no longer known...

it makes considerably -less- sense for the genesis text to have been an adaption of the ancient mesopotamian myths...where the biblical author took a big risk and -added- two rivers that were no longer known...and 'just happened' to have put them in the right places by a 'lucky guess'

 

[Lizathrose]

That's completely ignoring the fact that the "Pishon" river as mentioned isn't clearly geographically referenced in Genesis at all, especially in light of the fact that the Pishon still hasn't been clearly located -- and especially in light of numerous other geographically ascribed riverbeds or other bodies of water in the general area. To assert that an unfalsifiable, vague reference in Genesis that corresponds to a dry riverbed in a roughly similar geographical location is clear evidence of the Genesis account being older than its Mesopotamian predecessors is to ignore the geographical nature of the area and the lack of a consistent, clear frame of reference for the locations of these rivers.

Furthermore, to imply that the absence of the Pishon or the Gihon in Mesopotamian flood mythology is evidence of the relative age of Genesis to said mythology is erroneous -- why, for instance, are the rivers as referenced important in establishing the comparative ages of the myths, to begin with? Why, for instance, is the Epic of Gilgamesh "demonstrably" younger than Genesis solely on account of the apparent absence of an arguably minor body of water that Genesis doesn't even clearly reference?

 

[phillip1980]

Has anyone considered the flood happened by reason of a miracle? Like when Christ fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes. Or when God burned Sodom and Gamorah also turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. Can God not multiply water then decrease it? Of course he can, he spoke everything into existence! Think about it.

 

[Tintin]

Has anyone considered the flood happened by reason of a miracle? Like when Christ fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes. Or when God burned Sodom and Gamorah also turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt. Can God not multiply water then decrease it? Of course he can, he spoke everything into existence! Think about it.

Of course God could have created the Flood using a miracle, but he didn't. God set the Flood into motion but the Bible gives us some details about how it happened.

 

[Stephen63]

The flood didn't occur, to begin with. Flood geology is universally rejected by major geological institutes and national science adademies throughout the world, and for a vast number of reasons. Genesis should be taken allegorically, not literally.

I don't take Lizathrose's statements allegorically or literally. You believe in books written by sinners more than the Holy Bible.

The people that own the companies that publish your books also own all the media that lies to it's citizens about everything.

The books you believe & depend on as truth teaches:

*Columbus discovered America. The only real thing he did first is call America "The New World", which the word "Order" should have been attached to it from the beginning. You DO KNOW those red crosses on his ships wasn't the national symbol for Spain, right?

*Herbal medicine wasn't true medicine, which the FDA still won't still recognize because the pharmaceutical companies wanted to kill off this inexpensive competition.

*The Federal Reserve is a good thing.......

*None of our presidents had any dirty dealings in the World Wars. They were all heroes.

*The formation of our world happened by a massive explosion out of absolutely nothing, & let's not forget man came from monkeys.

 

[Tintin]

Evolutionists don't actually teach that man came from monkeys but that mankind and apes have a common ancestor. Which is still a load of nonsense.

 

[Stephen63]

BTW, Lizathrose, which biblical historical event is agreed upon by ANYONE in the scientific community?

 

[Stephen63]

That's completely ignoring the fact that the "Pishon" river as mentioned isn't clearly geographically referenced in Genesis at all, especially in light of the fact that the Pishon still hasn't been clearly located -- and especially in light of numerous other geographically ascribed riverbeds or other bodies of water in the general area. To assert that an unfalsifiable, vague reference in Genesis that corresponds to a dry riverbed in a roughly similar geographical location is clear evidence of the Genesis account being older than its Mesopotamian predecessors is to ignore the geographical nature of the area and the lack of a consistent, clear frame of reference for the locations of these rivers.

Furthermore, to imply that the absence of the Pishon or the Gihon in Mesopotamian flood mythology is evidence of the relative age of Genesis to said mythology is erroneous -- why, for instance, are the rivers as referenced important in establishing the comparative ages of the myths, to begin with? Why, for instance, is the Epic of Gilgamesh "demonstrably" younger than Genesis solely on account of the apparent absence of an arguably minor body of water that Genesis doesn't even clearly reference?

Note the word usage....... totally going out of her way to impress with sophistication...... the mark of the educated. Those who don't know any better would swallow this charade hook, line, & sinker.

To the readers...... how many students 19 yrs. old, & an athiest, would want to have college studies in Ancient Biblical History, not to mention having so much knowledge in her first year of college? I suggest a fraud, perhaps an internet theologian, or a disinformationist, or maybe just a troll with a vengeance...... what do you think?

 

[Tintin]

You're not the only one who smells a rat. I mean it's not unheard of, but it's exceedingly rare that a young adult, who's an atheist, would be studying Ancient Biblical History at college and be that advanced in their first year. Possible but highly unlikely.

 

[Lizathrose]

I don't take Lizathrose's statements allegorically or literally. You believe in books written by sinners more than the Holy Bible.

The people that own the companies that publish your books also own all the media that lies to it's citizens about everything.

The books you believe & depend on as truth teaches:

*Columbus discovered America. The only real thing he did first is call America "The New World", which the word "Order" should have been attached to it from the beginning. You DO KNOW those red crosses on his ships wasn't the national symbol for Spain, right?

*Herbal medicine wasn't true medicine, which the FDA still won't still recognize because the pharmaceutical companies wanted to kill off this inexpensive competition.

*The Federal Reserve is a good thing.......

*None of our presidents had any dirty dealings in the World Wars. They were all heroes.

*The formation of our world happened by a massive explosion out of absolutely nothing, & let's not forget man came from monkeys.

Your listed objections to the material that I allegedly "believe and depend upon" are completely inaccurate and unduly presumptive, Stephen. It's certainly an oddly prevailing misconception that Christopher Columbus discovered the American continents, but his voyages did nevertheless lead to a general European understanding of the presence of these new continents, and no credible, widely distributed books would allege that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America from any perspective aside from that of the European understanding of world geography at the time. Herbal medicine is generally pseudoscientific in nature -- it's incapable of substantiating itself from any generally accepted scientific framework or methodology in general. The Federal Reserve is good in that it regulates and standardizes U.S. currency and private banks to the benefit of the general economy of the United States, since standardization is a key component of efficiency in any economic infrastructure; its fundamental purpose is to serve as a central bank, which is standard fare throughout most of the world. You can thank the Federal Reserve for the fact that your greenbacks are consistent across all U.S. states and territories, for instance. As for presidential "dirty dealings" in wars, I don't know of any mainstream material that asserts that U.S. presidents are unequivocal "heroes." It's readily acknowledged that presidents along the lines of FDR were strong, capable, and effective, however. Again, you're free to present evidence that Woodrow Wilson or FDR were corrupt politicians backed by sinister, ulterior agendas or some such nonsense.

You also happen to have some fundamentally inaccurate misconceptions of the big bang model for cosmic expansion and evolution, specifically in reference to the process of common descent and the fact that the scientific consensus doesn't allege that the big bang "came from nothing." Until you're capable of even legitimately defining these theories, there's no reason at all to entertain your ignorance any further.

 

[Lizathrose]

Note the word usage....... totally going out of her way to impress with sophistication...... the mark of the educated. Those who don't know any better would swallow this charade hook, line, & sinker.

To the readers...... how many students 19 yrs. old, & an athiest, would want to have college studies in Ancient Biblical History, not to mention having so much knowledge in her first year of college? I suggest a fraud, perhaps an internet theologian, or a disinformationist, or maybe just a troll with a vengeance...... what do you think?

Why in the world would I require a formal educational background in Biblical history to merely point out a geological observation that supports a general scholarly consensus? I don't know of any credible scholarly references to the "Pishon" river that imply or prove that the Genesis account is older than its early Mesopotamian predecessors in light of a clear lack of any clear geological frame of reference in Genesis, and my criticism in an earlier post highlighted this. Let's hear a well-grounded criticism of my skeptical take in lieu of a presumptive criticism of my educational background.

 

[JesusChica1991]

LOL Wow...this goes from a topic originally about earthquakes around the world to an argument about the flood and how it happened. Let's not derail the thread, folks. Stay on topic, please

 

[Tintin]

I can see how some earthquakes around the world could be after-effects of the Flood. Seems on topic to me.

 

[Lizathrose]

I can see how some earthquakes around the world could be after-effects of the Flood. Seems on topic to me.

Evidence?

 

[Stephen63]

Your listed objections to the material that I allegedly "believe and depend upon" are completely inaccurate and unduly presumptive, Stephen. It's certainly an oddly prevailing misconception that Christopher Columbus discovered the American continents, but his voyages did nevertheless lead to a general European understanding of the presence of these new continents, and no credible, widely distributed books would allege that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America from any perspective aside from that of the European understanding of world geography at the time. Herbal medicine is generally pseudoscientific in nature -- it's incapable of substantiating itself from any generally accepted scientific framework or methodology in general. The Federal Reserve is good in that it regulates and standardizes U.S. currency and private banks to the benefit of the general economy of the United States, since standardization is a key component of efficiency in any economic infrastructure; its fundamental purpose is to serve as a central bank, which is standard fare throughout most of the world. You can thank the Federal Reserve for the fact that your greenbacks are consistent across all U.S. states and territories, for instance. As for presidential "dirty dealings" in wars, I don't know of any mainstream material that asserts that U.S. presidents are unequivocal "heroes." It's readily acknowledged that presidents along the lines of FDR were strong, capable, and effective, however. Again, you're free to present evidence that Woodrow Wilson or FDR were corrupt politicians backed by sinister, ulterior agendas or some such nonsense.

You also happen to have some fundamentally inaccurate misconceptions of the big bang model for cosmic expansion and evolution, specifically in reference to the process of common descent and the fact that the scientific consensus doesn't allege that the big bang "came from nothing." Until you're capable of even legitimately defining these theories, there's no reason at all to entertain your ignorance any further.

Why in the world would I require a formal educational background in Biblical history to merely point out a geological observation that supports a general scholarly consensus? I don't know of any credible scholarly references to the "Pishon" river that imply or prove that the Genesis account is older than its early Mesopotamian predecessors in light of a clear lack of any clear geological frame of reference in Genesis, and my criticism in an earlier post highlighted this. Let's hear a well-grounded criticism of my skeptical take in lieu of a presumptive criticism of my educational background.

See? College term papers don't read that complicated. Even if a person had such a high education..... such a one being an athiest wouldn't give air in a paper bag to anyone here. This would seem way below their level. BTW, I'm not impressed with your answers..... Statements without knowledgable quotes...... I hear that stuff all the time on political commercials. Fluff without stuff.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Meh no one even knows what causes the earth to quake. Just a bunch of unprovable theories. I'll worry about that more when the Great Quake happens.

 

[Drett]

I found this thread depressing. Do not be scared to seek knowledge and if you have no knowledge on a subject then don't make a comment on it