Eph 4:11-12, Which one are you?

[GWH]

1) First question is ridiculous and doesn't deserve an answer.

2) Do you pray and work for for heaven on earth? No, I personally surrender my life to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender. After that, praying for something for myself would be contrary to that surrendered life.

3) Do you think Jesus did not listen to music He liked? I obviously can't answer that. If He did, probably not even close to the relationship people have with music now.

No, the first question was asked by someone who thinks beautiful music is a blessing that helps to make earth heavenly.

Per the model prayer of Jesus, we should pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

The Bible does not say Jesus liked music, but it is likely he sung the Psalms, and Paul recommended good music.

 

[Clayman]

Not sure why you would expect to inherit his errors, it is a person, I never met him, hardly know anything about his personal life. But I know his teachings inside and out.
Christ is the first goer of faith, there's a second, third and so on. He allowed me to stand on his shoulders and see far beyond what I thought i could.

Can't wait to meet him on the other side.

I went to edit my post after I posted, seems like there's a trick I need to learn to do it, ill just read what I write before I hit the post button this time.
I was musing upon the bolded

I'll go first. I'm 100% a saint positioning himself to be perfected by the only gifted minister ive known in 38 years.

I realise you will look at other people for the perfecting of one self, as Im sure we agree the whole body is for the edifying of one another and teachers is plural.
Also I have never met anyone who does not make mistakes trying to understand scriptures myself included, sometimes I have listened to people and their teaching makes sense, only to discover years later that they and myself have it wrong, yet some do not change their position when error is pointed out to them and the reason they don't change their position is this! God has provided a man with the gift of teaching so what they say is as if from Gods mouth.

Not saying you do this, I am just taking opportunity to expand that having the gift of teaching does not make one immune from error. and that god gave us reasoning and faith to work things out for ourselves.

It can be dressed up however one likes but I have become worried about people who seemingly put their faith in a man, strangely there are those who follow men and their teachings. As most doctrinal errors leave bread crumbs which lead to a loaf standing in the pulpit.

Don't get me wrong men can highlight and teach new things for us from out of the scriptures and God provides them to do this but as soon as we learn something we should own it, check it out in the holy scriptures and if it's true then say its your belief and if you like pass it on as your own to teach, we shouldn't highlight man and say Mr or Dr Brainysmith taught me this, But say God taught me this and I believe in Him and His Word and subject myself to change as I learn and grow more mature.

I guess all im trying to affirm is we should not say I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, but rather "I follow Jesus Christ."

 

[Watchman22]

No, the first question was asked by someone who thinks beautiful music is a blessing that helps to make earth heavenly.

Per the model prayer of Jesus, we should pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

The Bible does not say Jesus liked music, but it is likely he sung the Psalms, and Paul recommended good music.

I'll let you in on another secret G.
A true saint of God NEVER prays for, asks for, or expects eternal life. A true saint spends every minute possible praying for, asking for, and expecting eternal life for their household.
With not ever even a thought of their own. Thats one of the many perspectives a sainted one.

 

[GWH]

No, the first question was asked by someone who thinks beautiful music is a blessing that helps to make earth heavenly.

Per the model prayer of Jesus, we should pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

The Bible does not say Jesus liked music, but it is likely he sung the Psalms, and Paul recommended good music.

I say this not to tempt you to listen to music if you think it would be wrong for you.
Perhaps this is like eating meat dedicated to idols (1Cor. 8:1-8).

 

[Watchman22]

I went to edit my post after I posted, seems like there's a trick I need to learn to do it, ill just read what I write before I hit the post button this time.
I was musing upon the bolded I realise you will look at other people for the perfecting of one self, as Im sure we agree the whole body is for the edifying of one another and teachers is plural.
Also I have never met anyone who does not make mistakes trying to understand scriptures myself included, sometimes I have listened to people and their teaching makes sense, only to discover years later that they and myself have it wrong, yet some do not change their position when error is pointed out to them and the reason they don't change their position is this! God has provided a man with the gift of teaching so what they say is as if from Gods mouth.

Not saying you do this, I am just taking opportunity to expand that having the gift of teaching does not make one immune from error. and that god gave us reasoning and faith to work things out for ourselves.

It can be dressed up however one likes but I have become worried about people who seemingly put their faith in a man, strangely there are those who follow men and their teachings. As most doctrinal errors leave bread crumbs which lead to a loaf standing in the pulpit.

Don't get me wrong men can highlight and teach new things for us from out of the scriptures and God provides them to do this but as soon as we learn something we should own it, check it out in the holy scriptures and if it's true then say its your belief and if you like pass it on as your own to teach, we shouldn't highlight man and say Mr or Dr Brainysmith taught me this, But say God taught me this and I believe in Him and His Word and subject myself to change as I learn and grow more mature.

I guess all im trying to affirm is we should not say I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, but rather "I follow Jesus Christ."

I've been able to navigate all the concerns you've legitimately raised. But it was the Holy Spirit and the mind of Christ i give credit for that.

If I mentioned the name of my gifted teacher right now, within ten minutes satan would have his minions trampling him underfoot. The reason for that is he knew the potential for people to worship him instead of the teaching. So he went out of his way to do crazy things that he made sure people knew he was a sinner just like everybody else. The problem with that method of teaching is the internet collected all those crazy things he did, and now has become fodder for the deceiver. Anytime I mention his name, out comes the cigar, the crazy sunglasses, the weird hats, the hand grenade lighter, the cussing, the demanding money. He made sure people knew he was a sinner, not a preacher calling people to be perfect like him. And if you could get past the culling out, what awaits is truly the best.

 

[Watchman22]

I say this not to tempt you to listen to music if you think it would be wrong for you.
Perhaps this is like eating meat dedicated to idols (1Cor. 8:1-8).

I've told you twice, do you think im not telling you the truth.

I asked you a week or so back if music sticks in your head, you said yes. Well when I received the mind of Christ, I was thinking about Him 24/7. I knew thinking about Him that much without trying was something very special. I made a decision not to listen to music so the thinking of Him wouldn't be interrupted. Maybe like Mary, I've chosen that better part. Your not trying to take that away from me are you?

 

[Watchman22]

I say this not to tempt you to listen to music if you think it would be wrong for you.
Perhaps this is like eating meat dedicated to idols (1Cor. 8:1-8).

In post 26, I told you something I promised myself I would never tell anyone . A secret about what happens when one receives the mind of Christ. Did you even recognize it?

 

[Watchman22]

I went to edit my post after I posted, seems like there's a trick I need to learn to do it, ill just read what I write before I hit the post button this time.
I was musing upon the bolded I realise you will look at other people for the perfecting of one self, as Im sure we agree the whole body is for the edifying of one another and teachers is plural.
Also I have never met anyone who does not make mistakes trying to understand scriptures myself included, sometimes I have listened to people and their teaching makes sense, only to discover years later that they and myself have it wrong, yet some do not change their position when error is pointed out to them and the reason they don't change their position is this! God has provided a man with the gift of teaching so what they say is as if from Gods mouth.

Not saying you do this, I am just taking opportunity to expand that having the gift of teaching does not make one immune from error. and that god gave us reasoning and faith to work things out for ourselves.

It can be dressed up however one likes but I have become worried about people who seemingly put their faith in a man, strangely there are those who follow men and their teachings. As most doctrinal errors leave bread crumbs which lead to a loaf standing in the pulpit.

Don't get me wrong men can highlight and teach new things for us from out of the scriptures and God provides them to do this but as soon as we learn something we should own it, check it out in the holy scriptures and if it's true then say its your belief and if you like pass it on as your own to teach, we shouldn't highlight man and say Mr or Dr Brainysmith taught me this, But say God taught me this and I believe in Him and His Word and subject myself to change as I learn and grow more mature.

I guess all im trying to affirm is we should not say I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, but rather "I follow Jesus Christ."

I have a good example.
I can't remember what subject he teaching on , but thinking about Jesus during the day came up. And he said that he sets his alarm on his watch to go off every hour, as a reminder to think about Jesus. My heart kind of sunk, because I knew that if you have the mind of Christ, you don't need to set your alarm every hour to think about Him.

So that gift interceded for me. I was kind of bummed that he wasn't having that experience . But I didn't take it as a mistake, just something he hadn't experienced yet.

 

[Cameron143]

Like all gifts, there are levels of giftedness as well as different administrations. One might not be suited to teach adults, for example, but may be well suited for children or young adults. Most problems occur when there is no giftedness or calling, or when operating in an administration that one desires but doesn't possess.

 

[Watchman22]

Like all gifts, there are levels of giftedness as well as different administrations. One might not be suited to teach adults, for example, but may be well suited for children or young adults. Most problems occur when there is no giftedness or calling, or when operating in an administration that one desires but doesn't possess.

What about you Cameron?
Do you have someone you can call your gifted teacher that validates your relationship with Him.
Someone you can say is perfecting saints?

Or do you consider yourself one of the gifted ministers that are responsible for perfecting saints?

 

[Cameron143]

What about you Cameron?
Do you have someone you can call your gifted teacher that validates your relationship with Him.
Someone you can say is perfecting saints?

Or do you consider yourself one of the gifted ministers that are responsible for perfecting saints?

I've sat under care of an amazing pastor for 30 years. My giftedness in teaching is limited to young people.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I know, and have known, many people with the gift of teaching; however, I don't look to any of them as my only teacher or guru; the Lord taught against that. Looking to one person as a guru figure seems like cult territory.

 

[Watchman22]

I know, and have known, many people with the gift of teaching; however, I don't look to any of them as my only teacher or guru; the Lord taught against that. Looking to one person as a guru figure seems like cult territory.

Did you even read Eph.4:11-12?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Did you even read Eph.4:11-12?

Yes, and I notice it says teachers, not teacher.

 

[GWH]

I've told you twice, do you think im not telling you the truth.

I asked you a week or so back if music sticks in your head, you said yes. Well when I received the mind of Christ, I was thinking about Him 24/7. I knew thinking about Him that much without trying was something very special. I made a decision not to listen to music so the thinking of Him wouldn't be interrupted. Maybe like Mary, I've chosen that better part. Your not trying to take that away from me are you?

No, which is why I said that perhaps this secret is like eating meat dedicated to idols (1Cor. 8:1-8);
it is okay for some who have the mind of Christ to enjoy music but not for you.
Again, it is likely Jesus enjoyed singing psalms, and Paul did not forbid good music.

 

[GWH]

Like all gifts, there are levels of giftedness as well as different administrations. One might not be suited to teach adults, for example, but may be well suited for children or young adults. Most problems occur when there is no giftedness or calling, or when operating in an administration that one desires but doesn't possess.

Yes, and all parents have the responsibility and thus the gift of teaching their children the way they should live (Pro. 22:6).

 

[Aaron56]

Ehp. 4 : 11-12,


In this passage we are told that there are two types of Christians, gifted ministers who are responsible for perfecting saints, and saints being perfected by those gifted ministers.

I" de like to see those gifted ministers announce themselves, and the saints being perfected to do the same.

I'll go first. I'm 100% a saint positioning himself to be perfected by the only gifted minister ive known in 38 years.

Go!

If you are saying that those with the doma gifts listed above (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher) are given to the saints for their edification and maturity I completely agree.

However, this is the full verse: "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

Notice that it is the saints who are the ministers. Anyone gifted with a measure of leadership and/or influence in the Body of Christ will, by the Holy Spirit, employ their grace to build up and equip the saints for the saints' work of ministry. Now, don't get me wrong: the grace of leadership is also a ministry but it is not one that co-opts the ministry of other saints for their own visions and plans. Too often church leaders (in name only) use the people to fulfill their own plans.

With that said, I have one man who watches over my soul. I know him personally and have so for many years. We've spent a lot of time together over the years. Also, I know several men I consider elders, saints who are mature, whose houses are in order. I can pick up the phone and call any of these men at any time. Because I walk in this grace, I can also provide this grace to others. So I watch over the souls of several saints. They, too, have direct access to me as their friend and as one who leads them in the Lord.

This is the organic nature of God's House because it is alive, not an institution. We may gather as a congregation but leadership is familial: the mature leading the younger, for men and for women.

 

[Watchman22]

If you are saying that those with the doma gifts listed above (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher) are given to the saints for their edification and maturity I completely agree.

However, this is the full verse: "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

Notice that it is the saints who are the ministers. Anyone gifted with a measure of leadership and/or influence in the Body of Christ will, by the Holy Spirit, employ their grace to build up and equip the saints for the saints' work of ministry. Now, don't get me wrong: the grace of leadership is also a ministry but it is not one that co-opts the ministry of other saints for their own visions and plans. Too often church leaders (in name only) use the people to fulfill their own plans.

With that said, I have one man who watches over my soul. I know him personally and have so for many years. We've spent a lot of time together over the years. Also, I know several men I consider elders, saints who are mature, whose houses are in order. I can pick up the phone and call any of these men at any time. Because I walk in this grace, I can also provide this grace to others. So I watch over the souls of several saints. They, too, have direct access to me as their friend and as one who leads them in the Lord.

This is the organic nature of God's House because it is alive, not an institution. We may gather as a congregation but leadership is familial: the mature leading the younger, for men and for women.

This how Eph.4: 11-12 reads in the Greek.

And He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the "perfecting" (2677 is a fitting or preparing, complete furnishings) of the called out ones, for the "work" ( 2041 toil and effort) of "ministry" ( 1248 attendance of a servant, servant ) to "building" ( 3619 architecture , structure) the "body" ( 4983 is the instrument of Christ)

So the saints are not the apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, they are everything underneath those gifted teachers. The worker bees so to speak. Everything from administration giving, money giving, charitable giving, could be parking cars on Sunday, everything except the actual teaching. The saints do their teaching ( their ministering) by the way they live their surrendered life, the way they are seen by other called out ones.

And a side note, if all those you mentioned are legit around you, your a very blessed saint. My experience has been the polar opposite.

 

[Aaron56]

This how Eph.4: 11-12 reads in the Greek.

And He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the "perfecting" (2677 is a fitting or preparing, complete furnishings) of the called out ones, for the "work" ( 2041 toil and effort) of "ministry" ( 1248 attendance of a servant, servant ) to "building" ( 3619 architecture , structure) the "body" ( 4983 is the instrument of Christ)

So the saints are not the apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, they are everything underneath those gifted teachers. The worker bees so to speak. Everything from administration giving, money giving, charitable giving, could be parking cars on Sunday, everything except the actual teaching. The saints do their teaching ( their ministering) by the way they live their surrendered life, the way they are seen by other called out ones.

And a side note, if all those you mentioned are legit around you, your a very blessed saint. My experience has been the polar opposite.

The "ministering" word is diakonia in the Greek. Here is the same word in several places:

"But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me."

Here Martha is doing the ministering.

Here, in Acts 1, the diakonia is distinct from apostleship.

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

In 1 Corinthians 12 we're provided examples of diakonia given to "all men".

"And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations (diakonia), but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Paul lists wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophesy, and discerning. None of these are the doma gifts of leadership (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher).

My point: leadership builds up the saints for the saints' ministries.... not the other way around. A father does not consume his children (like Cronus of Greek mythology). A father builds up his children so that they will be equipped for the purposes of God: their callings and ministries.

 

[Watchman22]

The "ministering" word is diakonia in the Greek. Here is the same word in several places:

"But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me."

Here Martha is doing the ministering.

Here, in Acts 1, the diakonia is distinct from apostleship.

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

In 1 Corinthians 12 we're provided examples of diakonia given to "all men".

"And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations (diakonia), but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Paul lists wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophesy, and discerning. None of these are the doma gifts of leadership (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher).

My point: leadership builds up the saints for the saints' ministries.... not the other way around. A father does not consume his children (like Cronus of Greek mythology). A father builds up his children so that they will be equipped for the purposes of God: their callings and ministries.

I think your using my point against me.

There are those doing the perfecting , and those being perfected. Thats my claim.


Today we have potential saints being perfected by everything but gifted ministers , themselves, AI. And because of that the service part, the ministry of the saints is non existent.
But it sounds like you may be one of the exceptions.