Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[legion]

I am not arguing. I am pointing out what scripture reveals. Building without first having a foundation in place is pointless:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

(The following comments indicate what the foundation consists of and that it need only be laid one time)

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Okay I may have confused you with whoever it was that was arguing baptism is required or that somehow the laws involved in all this

As I said sequence does not matter. There is no remission of sin prior to obedience to the command.

The account in Ephesians states we are saved through faith per the grace of God. Man did nothing to deserve God making a way for salvation. Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, yet not all will take hold of what He died to provide. Those who believe and obey God's instructions presented by Peter are saved through their willing to act in faith to the message.

The thief died prior to the institution of the NT. In fact no one could be reborn until the NT was instituted after Jesus shed/poured forth the gift of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. Jesus prophesied about what Peter commanded concerning the NT rebirth; believe, repent, be water baptized in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Ghost as well. (Luke 24:47)

As Peter stated, water baptism is not about washing dirt off of ones physical body. One's belief and obedience to the command results in what God says it does; sins are remitted.

Paul's primary ministry was not to baptize the people but to preach the gospel message that included the need to be baptized. This becomes clear when one takes the time to study all scriptures relative to the topic. Paul was still administering water baptism some 20+ years after Peter gave the command at Pentecost. He baptized 12 men when others were not available to do so. (Acts 19:1-7)

Okay I think I may be an error in trying to debate this with you you're not actually arguing against my point you're expanding the topic correct?

 

[legion]

Okay so not to beat a dead horse here but somehow I'm not even sure who I'm debating anymore so my position is that salvation does not require baptism although communion and baptism are commanded of the believer. Failing to do so does not negate salvation.

And for the sub detail salvation is a response to the spirits nudging meaning that I am responding to the spirit which God through his grace is allowing me the decision. This is all the work of Christ I am simply responding.

Whether this is an altar call or at the point of just having a personal Bible reading or perhaps friends sharing the truth one way or the other the spirit nudges and I respond with essentially I believe that Jesus Is My Savior that I'm a sinner please forgive me of my sins and save me. At this point the spirit indwells me and I am saved if I were to drop dead I would be with Jesus

After this fact through discipleship I should be told to be baptized or perhaps I would discover this in the Bible myself.

The act of going through a baptism in Protestant Christianity does not save you it is a display of what has happened already on the inside. Nor does this in part any further spiritual things as the Holy Spirit has already been given at the point of salvation.

If you are not agreeing with this Protestant Christianity view feel free to let me know who you are so that I don't get confused and who I'm responding to somehow I think I got my wires crossed in the middle of all this

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is not what those verses are saying.

Especially in light of these 150+ verses showing faith alone / belief...

Now I need you to disqualify each if these verses ...when you have done that i will consider your viewpoint

verse!

Luke 7:48-50 | 8:12 | 18:42
John 1:7, 12 | 2:23 | 3:15, 16, 18, 36 | 4:39 | 4:41-42 | 5:24, 45-47 | 6:29, 35, 40, 47 | 7:38-39 | 8:24, 29-30 | 9:35-38 | 10:24-26 | 11:15, 25-26, 41-42 | 12:36, 46 | 13:19 | 17:20-21 | 19:35 | 20:29, 31

Acts 3:16 | 4:4, 32 | 8:12, 37 | 9:42 | 10:43, 45 | 11:17, 21 | 13:21, 39 | 14:1, 23, 27 | 15:7, 9 | 16:31 | 17:4-5, 11-12 | 18:8, 27 | 19:4 | 20:21 | 21:25 | 26:18

Romans 1:16-17 | 3:22, 25-28, 30 | 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24 | 5:1-2 | 9:30-33 | 10:4, 6, 9, 10 | 11:20, 30-32 | 15:1

1 Corinthians 1:21
2 Corinthians 4:4
Galatians 2:16, 20 | 3:2, 5-9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26 | 5:5

Ephesians 1:13, 19 | 2:8 | 3:17
Philippians 1:29 | 3:9
1 Thessalonians 1:7 | 2:1 | 4:14
2 Thessalonians 1:10 | 2:12-13 | 3:2
1 Timothy 1:16 | 3:16 | 4:3, 10
2 Timothy 1:12 | 3:15
Hebrews 4:2-3 | 6:12 | 10:39 | 11:6-7, 31
James 2:23
1 Peter 1:21 | 2:6-7
1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13
Jude 1:5

…..Faith isn’t the reason you don’t need to do what god said anymore . is what you’re missing. And yeah scripture kinda just does actually say what it says. Like this another example

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this example

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This just says what it says like the rest of those just say what they say

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15

the text of the Bible just says what it says , and if the text of the Bible is the basis the things some of you are saying don’t hold enough water to please the thirst of a dehydrated gnat . However if the basis is a Joseph prince hypergrace book , your all spot on

 

[legion]

…..Faith isn’t the reason you don’t need to do what god said anymore . is what you’re missing. And yeah scripture kinda just does actually say what it says. Like this another example

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this example

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This just says what it says like the rest of those just say what they say

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15

the text of the Bible just says what it says , and if the text of the Bible is the basis the things some of you are saying don’t hold enough water to please the thirst of a dehydrated gnat . However if the basis is a Joseph prince hypergrace book , your all spot on

Again you don't understand what your reading, and but imposing anything beyond faith or belief on salvation, you are flat out denying christ work on the cross.

P.s. that sentence in English, i agree, makes it sound like baptism is necessary, but the Greek structure underlying it separates the two events into this and THEN that..

 

[dkontner]

There are two baptisms. One of those is absolutely necessary for salvation. Ye must be born again. The scriptures don't lie. It's easy to jump sometimes, I've seen me do it. I've learned not to assume anything when reading scripture and I tend to ignore non-biblical terms. Man can and will twist anything and everything. Some are deceived, some are deceivers. We are greeks, we seek wisdom and not God. At least that's what He says.

John 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Wansvic]

Okay I may have confused you with whoever it was that was arguing baptism is required or that somehow the laws involved in all this

Okay I think I may be an error in trying to debate this with you you're not actually arguing against my point you're expanding the topic correct?

Having a discussion is different from arguing. That was my point.

Also, I do not agree with your belief concerning what the bible says about salvation. And the reason I do not agree with you is because scripture reveals everyone living in the NT must believe in Jesus, repent, and be water baptized in the name of Jesus in order for their sins to be remitted, and be indwelt by the Holy Ghost as well. It is at this point that a person becomes born again; the foundation is laid.

If you will recall Jesus told His disciples to wait to be endued with power before going out into the world and sharing the gospel. This is because, as Jesus explained, building without having first laid a foundation leads to ultimate destruction. (Matt. 7:21-27, Luke 10:46-49, Heb. 6:1-2)

 

[Wansvic]

Okay I'll make this statement for the third time and then I'm done with it once you you show that these 150 verses are not saying faith alone then I will consider your viewpoint

Good luck so far nobody in 2,000 years have been able to do it but I await your very detailed explanation against each of these versus

verse!

Luke 7:48-50 | 8:12 | 18:42
John 1:7, 12 | 2:23 | 3:15, 16, 18, 36 | 4:39 | 4:41-42 | 5:24, 45-47 | 6:29, 35, 40, 47 | 7:38-39 | 8:24, 29-30 | 9:35-38 | 10:24-26 | 11:15, 25-26, 41-42 | 12:36, 46 | 13:19 | 17:20-21 | 19:35 | 20:29, 31

Acts 3:16 | 4:4, 32 | 8:12, 37 | 9:42 | 10:43, 45 | 11:17, 21 | 13:21, 39 | 14:1, 23, 27 | 15:7, 9 | 16:31 | 17:4-5, 11-12 | 18:8, 27 | 19:4 | 20:21 | 21:25 | 26:18

Romans 1:16-17 | 3:22, 25-28, 30 | 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24 | 5:1-2 | 9:30-33 | 10:4, 6, 9, 10 | 11:20, 30-32 | 15:1

1 Corinthians 1:21
2 Corinthians 4:4
Galatians 2:16, 20 | 3:2, 5-9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26 | 5:5

Ephesians 1:13, 19 | 2:8 | 3:17
Philippians 1:29 | 3:9
1 Thessalonians 1:7 | 2:1 | 4:14
2 Thessalonians 1:10 | 2:12-13 | 3:2
1 Timothy 1:16 | 3:16 | 4:3, 10
2 Timothy 1:12 | 3:15
Hebrews 4:2-3 | 6:12 | 10:39 | 11:6-7, 31
James 2:23
1 Peter 1:21 | 2:6-7
1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13
Jude 1:5

Okay I'll make this statement for the third time and then I'm done with it once you you show that these 150 verses are not saying faith alone then I will consider your viewpoint

Good luck so far nobody in 2,000 years have been able to do it but I await your very detailed explanation against each of these versus

verse!

Luke 7:48-50 | 8:12 | 18:42
John 1:7, 12 | 2:23 | 3:15, 16, 18, 36 | 4:39 | 4:41-42 | 5:24, 45-47 | 6:29, 35, 40, 47 | 7:38-39 | 8:24, 29-30 | 9:35-38 | 10:24-26 | 11:15, 25-26, 41-42 | 12:36, 46 | 13:19 | 17:20-21 | 19:35 | 20:29, 31

Acts 3:16 | 4:4, 32 | 8:12, 37 | 9:42 | 10:43, 45 | 11:17, 21 | 13:21, 39 | 14:1, 23, 27 | 15:7, 9 | 16:31 | 17:4-5, 11-12 | 18:8, 27 | 19:4 | 20:21 | 21:25 | 26:18

Romans 1:16-17 | 3:22, 25-28, 30 | 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 16, 23, 24 | 5:1-2 | 9:30-33 | 10:4, 6, 9, 10 | 11:20, 30-32 | 15:1

1 Corinthians 1:21
2 Corinthians 4:4
Galatians 2:16, 20 | 3:2, 5-9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26 | 5:5

Ephesians 1:13, 19 | 2:8 | 3:17
Philippians 1:29 | 3:9
1 Thessalonians 1:7 | 2:1 | 4:14
2 Thessalonians 1:10 | 2:12-13 | 3:2
1 Timothy 1:16 | 3:16 | 4:3, 10
2 Timothy 1:12 | 3:15
Hebrews 4:2-3 | 6:12 | 10:39 | 11:6-7, 31
James 2:23
1 Peter 1:21 | 2:6-7
1 John 5:1, 5, 10, 13
Jude 1:5

It's interesting that you refuse to comment on the points made in post 977 regarding your previous comments in post 975.

As to the scriptures you reference, it's clear they say much more than you suggest when they are taken in context,

 

[mailmandan]

Again you don't understand what your reading, and but imposing anything beyond faith or belief on salvation, you are flat out denying christ work on the cross.

P.s. that sentence in English, i agree, makes it sound like baptism is necessary, but the Greek structure underlying it separates the two events into this and THEN that..

False religion turns shadows and symbols of salvation into the substance and the source.

 

[Wansvic]

There are two baptisms. One of those is absolutely necessary for salvation. Ye must be born again. The scriptures don't lie. It's easy to jump sometimes, I've seen me do it. I've learned not to assume anything when reading scripture and I tend to ignore non-biblical terms. Man can and will twist anything and everything. Some are deceived, some are deceivers. We are greeks, we seek wisdom and not God. At least that's what He says.

John 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Have you considered that the initial detailed accounts of Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans (half-Jew, half-Gentile), the Apostle Paul, and the 12 Ephesian men confirm that both water and Spirit were involved in their conversion experiences? Why? If one experience actually replaced the other? (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Another detail that should be considered is the fact that Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Many dispute what Jesus meant. However, is the fact that the conversion experiences involved water and Spirit just a mere coincidence?

I'm reminded of the Apostle Paul's words to Timothy. (2 Tim. 2:15)

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, KJV) is an exhortation to diligently study Scripture, ensuring accurate interpretation to earn God’s approval, not human praise. It calls believers to be skilled laborers in the Word, avoiding shame by handling divine truth with accuracy and integrity."

 

[dkontner]

Have you considered that the initial detailed accounts of Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans (half-Jew, half-Gentile), the Apostle Paul, and the 12 Ephesian men confirm that both water and Spirit were involved in their conversion experiences? Why? If one experience actually replaced the other? (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Another detail that should be considered is the fact that Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Many dispute what Jesus meant. However, is the fact that the conversion experiences involved water and Spirit just a mere coincidence?

I'm reminded of the Apostle Paul's words to Timothy. (2 Tim. 2:15)

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, KJV) is an exhortation to diligently study Scripture, ensuring accurate interpretation to earn God’s approval, not human praise. It calls believers to be skilled laborers in the Word, avoiding shame by handling divine truth with accuracy and integrity."

And your point is? Get a clue

 

[MicaelOhagan]

Two different salvations

Faith alone = placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. This saves you from the second death.
Works through Faith = activity of righteousness defined by being led by the Spirit of God. This saves you from the corruption of the world.

Adam is responsible for the sin in the flesh. Therefore a new identity, not in Adam, is required to escape the second death. Here, faith is required.

Satan is responsible for the corruption of the world. He is the god of the air. The systems he created are designed to entrap men within them through messages of self-reliance and fear. Only people who are in Christ may accomplish works of faith that "deliver them from evil". By these works they are saved, not to go to heaven (that is already accomplished), but from the ways of the wicked one.

Nice answer
Exact and to the point
I personally have difficulty with this
I know I'm a real born again Christian
And it was nothing to do with
Making a decision for Christ
Because that surely leaves room for boasting which Paul says doesn't exist
I was made a Christian
My input
Nothing
My surrender was orchestrated so I literally didn't have a viable alternative
So yes
Saved by grace
And 23 years later I'm still amazed

 

[pinebeach]

It's interesting that you refuse to comment on the points made in post 977 regarding your previous comments in post 975.

As to the scriptures you reference, it's clear they say much more than you suggest when they are taken in context,

Nah. That's just you trying to convince everyone that your Oneness Pentacostalism is the only ism that knows all the right answers.

I mean, you did let people who do not know, that you are Jesus only? That would only be fair.

 

[pinebeach]

…..Faith isn’t the reason you don’t need to do what god said anymore . is what you’re missing. And yeah scripture kinda just does actually say what it says. Like this another example

Yes. Scripture is quite succint. However, you are not. You jump around like a cat on hot coals.

the text of the Bible just says what it says , and if the text of the Bible is the basis the things some of you are saying don’t hold enough water to please the thirst of a dehydrated gnat . However if the basis is a Joseph prince hypergrace book , your all spot on

It's against the rules of the forum to talk about hyper grace which you are referring to above.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Again you don't understand what your reading, and but imposing anything beyond faith or belief on salvation, you are flat out denying christ work on the cross.

P.s. that sentence in English, i agree, makes it sound like baptism is necessary, but the Greek structure underlying it separates the two events into this and THEN that..

“Again you don't understand what your reading, “

yeah who could possibly decipher this mystery



“Again you don't understand what your reading, “

yeah who could possibly decipher this mystery

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What a mystery ….

It’s not that I can’t understand it , it’s that you won’t accept what the lord said

But honestly this is a waste of time. I hope rejecting the lords word and calling that grace works out for you

 

[pinebeach]

in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,

Are you able to explain what Paul is actually talking about here?

Specifically, what is the circumcision made without hands? What is being circumcised?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes. Scripture is quite succint. However, you are not. You jump around like a cat on hot coals.



It's against the rules of the forum to talk about hyper grace which you are referring to above.

Naw actuwlly re read that rule it’s against the forum rules to preach hypergracers doctrine here

 

[pinebeach]

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How does that apply to the actual gospel? How do you see that with implications regarding salvation, which, is not dependant on our deeds?

I mean anyone can throw copy/paste scripture up but that does not mean it is understand by the one doing the throwing

 

[pinebeach]

Naw actuwlly re read that rule it’s against the forum rules to preach hypergracers doctrine here

Keep it up and we'll find out. You are accusing people of speaking about hypergrace and that is not true.

 

[pinebeach]

You state that sins are washed away at the point of repenting. However, scripture states otherwise. Obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is the point in which sins are forgiven. "Repent, AND be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus for remission of sin..." (Acts 2:38) Peter's comment in Acts 3:19 does not exclude water baptism. Repentance is the act of turning away from sin and going in pursuit of God's ways which includes obedience to water baptism for remission of sin as commanded by Peter.

Right. And don't forget to tell people that if they have been baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit it did not take. They will need to be re-baptised in Jesus name only.

At least allow folks to understand what you are really all about.

Like this: Post 7912 'Loss of salvation' thread

Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of... What name was Jesus referring to? The actions of His apostles supply the answer. They obeyed His command by consistently baptizing people in the name of Jesus. It is clear they understood a truth Paul reveals to the Colossians; In Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. (Col. 2:9-13)

What I was pointing out about ignorance being no excuse is that receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sin remitted in obedience to water baptism are essential elements of the NT rebirth. (John 3:3-5)

I believe Luke 12 references different degrees of punishment regarding ignorance relative to a born again believer's walk in general.

You said it. I didn't. (shrugs)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Are you able to explain what Paul is actually talking about here?

Specifically, what is the circumcision made without hands? What is being circumcised?

“Are you able to explain what Paul is actually talking about here?”

Paul is explaining it I don’t need to change anything it says exactly what it means same thing here

Why do we get baptized Paul ?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-

Paul’s not creating puzzles and mysteries needing to be redefined by someone two thousand years later . He is giving us understanding of what baptism means for us he is explaining it we’re meant to learn what he’s already saying about baptism ….

they had been baptized but didn’t understand the doctrine paup is explaining it

“in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ll stop with those two but try reading bot sections

…putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, “
baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

sin is remitted when a person dies for those sins .

This is what we believe

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this is what we do based on that belief

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-


faith isnt the reason no one needs to do what he said , it’s the reason we have no excuses because we can