Error that Refuses to Die

[PAC-fit]

Really? Like, how long must we be seen bringing this up? As long as I see evidence it still being fomented. This time, in the area of "false Gospel".

Question: Jesus said "God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” But then here comes Paul who is given the deepest revelations straight from Jesus who said, "for I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." Do some Christian circles use the message of the crucified Savior to distance itself from the Spirit of the Savior?

Gemini - "Yes, certain theological frameworks and church traditions do emphasize the message of the crucified Savior in a way that structurally distances their practice from the dynamic, ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit. This tension represents one of the most enduring conversations in historical and contemporary theology. Rather than looking at this as a contradiction between Jesus and Paul, the divergence occurs in how different Christian circles interpret the relationship between the historical work of the cross and the active presence of the Spirit."

Entirety

 

[tablet123]

There would be no contradictions between Jesus and Paul.

To accept Jesus as Savior is to worship God for it is part of the package.

Jesus is God so how do you have salvation if you refuse to worship Him acknowledging His authority and only accept His sacrifice.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Just like accepting the sacrifice of Jesus comes the package of allowing the Spirit to lead you to be Christlike.

Is this like faith alone you only have to confess Jesus but no other requirement.

Does Paul have to list all the things Christians must do when accepting Jesus for it should be common sense to a person reading the Bible.

Why would Paul say he only wants to know Christ and His sacrifice but then believe you do not have to worship God having a relationship with Him and being Christlike having works of love.

Paul said He only wants to know Christ crucified because it is salvation not denying other things concerning being a Christian.

It is about receiving the Spirit and that relationship that saves us for then we have a relationship with God on His level.

The blood of Christ get us to having the Spirit for we can be regenerated, reborn, which saves us.

Repentance and sacrifice will not save us apart from not having the Spirit to change us.

 

[Aussie52]

Calvary leads one to Pentecost.

 

[GWH]

Really? Like, how long must we be seen bringing this up? As long as I see evidence it still being fomented. This time, in the area of "false Gospel".

Question: Jesus said "God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” But then here comes Paul who is given the deepest revelations straight from Jesus who said, "for I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." Do some Christian circles use the message of the crucified Savior to distance itself from the Spirit of the Savior?

Gemini - "Yes, certain theological frameworks and church traditions do emphasize the message of the crucified Savior in a way that structurally distances their practice from the dynamic, ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit. This tension represents one of the most enduring conversations in historical and contemporary theology. Rather than looking at this as a contradiction between Jesus and Paul, the divergence occurs in how different Christian circles interpret the relationship between the historical work of the cross and the active presence of the Spirit."

Entirety

Both-And

 

[maximc]

Really? Like, how long must we be seen bringing this up? As long as I see evidence it still being fomented. This time, in the area of "false Gospel".

Question: Jesus said "God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” But then here comes Paul who is given the deepest revelations straight from Jesus who said, "for I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." Do some Christian circles use the message of the crucified Savior to distance itself from the Spirit of the Savior?

Gemini - "Yes, certain theological frameworks and church traditions do emphasize the message of the crucified Savior in a way that structurally distances their practice from the dynamic, ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit. This tension represents one of the most enduring conversations in historical and contemporary theology. Rather than looking at this as a contradiction between Jesus and Paul, the divergence occurs in how different Christian circles interpret the relationship between the historical work of the cross and the active presence of the Spirit."

Entirety

The death and resurrection of Jesus is the gateway for our salvation. When we are saved, we receive the Spirit of God who resides in us. Through the Spirit of God, we have access to God by means of worship. How should we worship? In spirit and in truth.

 

[PAC-fit]

It is about receiving the Spirit and that relationship that saves us for then we have a relationship with God on His level.

No drop-in-the-bucket there. A concern held yet, not agreed on by the overwhelming bulk of denoms.

The blood of Christ get us to having the Spirit for we can be regenerated, reborn, which saves us.

Well there it is in 'truth' by so many here, but stops short of expressing Paul's Gospel. I suspect by now though a godless thorn in the side in what God instituted, "that the church may receive edification" (1 Cor 14:5). Am I right? Is this form of worship with the Spirit's spontaneous 'outburst' the thing that drives them away the most? God doesn't need our approval or disapprovals upon what was written. Acts 2 Pentecost and the gifts was initiated by Him and by Him "they will cease". Those who cease communion over this 'inconvenience' could be considered, incapable to decipher between it being 'heresy' or quenching Him.

 

[dkontner]

It doesn't matter whether we agree on it, it matters if the Lord has saved you. Nothing worse than a blind that thinks he can see.

 

[timf]

Jesus came in fulfillment of the prophecies to Israel for the earthly kingdom. Most of Israel did not respond to this offer. After Stephen was put to death Paul was called to be an apostle to the gentiles. Israel still had a theoretical possibility to receive the kingdom in a brief (until 70 AD) overlap period.

The national kingdom gospel to Israel required belief in Jesus as Messiah, still required law observance, and looked forward to the resurrection of the just for eternal life.

The individual gospel of grace requires belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in payment for sins, law observance is not required,and eternal life is obtained upon belief.

 

[Aaron56]

Corinth was a large city in Greece. In the first century, perhaps 200,000 people lived there. When Paul wrote his first letter to the church in Corinth some scholars estimate that there were around 150 ekklesia at that time.

In his first letter to the Corinthian Church Paul wrote the following:

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

I've heard some preachers claim this passage is a de facto standard for for the gospel message "So," they conclude, "I will preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified."

On the surface this seems humble. And to people receiving such a message it probably won't be challenged, but the reason Paul limited his preaching thus was not because of humility but because of carnality on the part of the Corinthian believers.

When he wrote this to the Corinthians:

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

He continued with this:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory..."

So, to paraphrase what Paul wrote to the Corinthian believers: "I preached Christ and Him crucified when I was with you, BUT we (apostles) have a different message for the mature."

If we keep reading his letter to the Corinthian believers we find the evidence of their immaturity:

"And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal."

There is a lot of discussion about whether or not a believer can be "carnal" and still be a believer. Here, carnality is about being focused on the flesh. When someone first comes to Christ he or she is carnal. Much like a baby is concerned for his comfort, whether or not his belly is full, etc. the Corinthian church was comprised of believers still in infancy in their walk with Christ.

And to be sure: It is not shameful to be a new believer in Christ and to be carnal. In fact, it should be expected. It is shameful, however, to remain carnal. A believer in Christ should put into practice what they are taught so that they mature in their walk with the Lord. This is the meaning of Hebrews 5:

"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are mature, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Paul wrote about a "solid food" message for the mature to the same Corinthian church:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature..."

It's not that the milk of the Word is bad. On the contrary: babes in Christ need milk. If a preacher insists they will only provide milk, however, he will perpetually keep believers "unskilled int he word of righteousness".

 

[PAC-fit]

Corinth was a large city in Greece. In the first century, perhaps 200,000 people lived there. When Paul wrote his first letter to the church in Corinth some scholars estimate that there were around 150 ekklesia at that time.

In his first letter to the Corinthian Church Paul wrote the following:

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

I've heard some preachers claim this passage is a de facto standard for for the gospel message "So," they conclude, "I will preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified."

On the surface this seems humble. And to people receiving such a message it probably won't be challenged, but the reason Paul limited his preaching thus was not because of humility but because of carnality on the part of the Corinthian believers.

When he wrote this to the Corinthians:

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

He continued with this:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory..."

So, to paraphrase what Paul wrote to the Corinthian believers: "I preached Christ and Him crucified when I was with you, BUT we (apostles) have a different message for the mature."

If we keep reading his letter to the Corinthian believers we find the evidence of their immaturity:

"And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal."

There is a lot of discussion about whether or not a believer can be "carnal" and still be a believer. Here, carnality is about being focused on the flesh. When someone first comes to Christ he or she is carnal. Much like a baby is concerned for his comfort, whether or not his belly is full, etc. the Corinthian church was comprised of believers still in infancy in their walk with Christ.

And to be sure: It is not shameful to be a new believer in Christ and to be carnal. In fact, it should be expected. It is shameful, however, to remain carnal. A believer in Christ should put into practice what they are taught so that they mature in their walk with the Lord. This is the meaning of Hebrews 5:

"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are mature, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Paul wrote about a "solid food" message for the mature to the same Corinthian church:

"However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature..."

It's not that the milk of the Word is bad. On the contrary: babes in Christ need milk. If a preacher insists they will only provide milk, however, he will perpetually keep believers "unskilled int he word of righteousness".

Yes, the Corinthian example has become to be known as the default and feature response to move on into 'the more excellent way' style maturity, and discard all the understanding of being edified by the Spirit' as rubbish for you and I. You like to comment on Corinthians I see. Question is, is all that spiritually related content recorded for "newborn babes" justification to depart from those gifts or, move from infancy TO those spiritual gifts. Anyone claiming the "more excellent way" is God leading us to abandon the living sacrifices of tongues, interpretations and prophesy has quite the task ahead of them. Paul commented on what amount of content the babe should look forward to:

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro... But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things..."

That doesn't like the default, "faith, hope and love" conclusion for immaturity to expect. You also like the instance of immaturity found in Hebrews? Me too. But does your referencing immaturity that should be a forgotten past in Corinthians and Hebrews 5 match the points of immaturity raised that should be discarded in Hebrews 6?

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

You seem like a straight shooter, let me see if I can oblige. Frankly, we are nowhere near God permitting departing from something the collective bond of the Spirit has never secured since the third century. Frankly, we are still in infancy of the spiritual man of Christ proven by a near universal despising the possibility to ", , grow up into him in all things..."

 

[Aaron56]

Yes, the Corinthian example has become to be known as the default and feature response to move on into 'the more excellent way' style maturity, and discard all the understanding of being edified by the Spirit' as rubbish for you and I. You like to comment on Corinthians I see. Question is, is all that spiritually related content recorded for "newborn babes" justification to depart from those gifts or, move from infancy TO those spiritual gifts. Anyone claiming the "more excellent way" is God leading us to abandon the living sacrifices of tongues, interpretations and prophesy has quite the task ahead of them. Paul commented on what amount of content the babe should look forward to:

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro... But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things..."

That doesn't like the default, "faith, hope and love" conclusion for immaturity to expect. You also like the instance of immaturity found in Hebrews? Me too. But does your referencing immaturity that should be a forgotten past in Corinthians and Hebrews 5 match the points of immaturity raised that should be discarded in Hebrews 6?

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

You seem like a straight shooter, let me see if I can oblige. Frankly, we are nowhere near God permitting departing from something the collective bond of the Spirit has never secured since the third century. Frankly, we are still in infancy of the spiritual man of Christ proven by a near universal despising the possibility to ", , grow up into him in all things..."

I appreciate the discussion.
For my benefit, can you restate your thesis: what it is you are trying to conclude or discuss?

 

[lrs68]

Have you ever considered in John chapter 1 that speaks about the WORD and a few verses later explained the WORD was made flesh?

What do you think the WORD was before integrating into flesh?

He is God so He is also Spirit because God is Spirit.

 

[PAC-fit]

Have you ever considered in John chapter 1 that speaks about the WORD and a few verses later explained the WORD was made flesh?

What do you think the WORD was before integrating into flesh?

He is God so He is also Spirit because God is Spirit.

Are you suggesting I am trifling with Jesus' divinity?

 

[PAC-fit]

I appreciate the discussion.
For my benefit, can you restate your thesis: what it is you are trying to conclude or discuss?

Sorry if a mess, but as you may have noticed in my last response, the central point is, the Body of Christ lack of cohesive unity in the Spirit is an absolute shambles by an en-mass quench. Personally, I view our current condition, hamstrung at any attempt to secure the "more excellent way" high-ground due to that Body still wishes to bask in Paul's alarm without hesitation.

"I hear there are divisions among you"

Straightened solitarily in one's own stripe? No problem. Being "of the same mind" (Apostles' precept), the Body deems, 'impossible'. Now here comes the Apostle to address immaturity as you initiated, wherein, the carnal babe is given some things to look forward to. Too bad. Having steeped for ourselves thousands of like-minded instructors to continue into next century a formerly cohesive unity, fractured.

Yep, but what else was it to do but quench the Spirits' edification that otherwise would bring the babes to wit for themselves God's own provision. Nope. The rolls have decided, mortals' physic serves us 'well enough, look how far we've come!'

Honestly, I had no intention of bringing immaturity into view. I see now, how very beneficial the record serves for this purpose.

 

[lrs68]

Are you suggesting I am trifling with Jesus' divinity?

Nope!

I'm saying that the WORD who became Yeshua/Jesus was Spirit because God is Spirit.

 

[GWH]

Nope!

I'm saying that the WORD who became Yeshua/Jesus was Spirit because God is Spirit.

Yes, the One good, loving, just, creator Spirit/Word.

 

[PAC-fit]

Nope!

I'm saying that the WORD who became Yeshua/Jesus was Spirit because God is Spirit.

Just as it is written, "equal with God" (Phillipians 2:6). Suppose you point out where I stray from this? But be sure and not stray from Him becoming a man.

 

[PAC-fit]

I had no intention of bringing immaturity into view. I see now, how very beneficial the record serves for this purpose.

Simply put, a portion of the full, as in full plural-side of His promises.

the One good, loving, just, creator Spirit/Word.

Nice knowing this token of attributes we are welcomed to, being a part of what promises He bestows for us.

“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature...”
(2 Peter 1:4)

Instead, there is a strange reluctance for “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, , "(John 17:22) I'll await the points of my supposed error in expectation of all the NT gifts and attributes as active yet today.

 

[Aaron56]

Sorry if a mess, but as you may have noticed in my last response, the central point is, the Body of Christ lack of cohesive unity in the Spirit is an absolute shambles by an en-mass quench. Personally, I view our current condition, hamstrung at any attempt to secure the "more excellent way" high-ground due to that Body still wishes to bask in Paul's alarm without hesitation.

"I hear there are divisions among you"

Straightened solitarily in one's own stripe? No problem. Being "of the same mind" (Apostles' precept), the Body deems, 'impossible'. Now here comes the Apostle to address immaturity as you initiated, wherein, the carnal babe is given some things to look forward to. Too bad. Having steeped for ourselves thousands of like-minded instructors to continue into next century a formerly cohesive unity, fractured.

Yep, but what else was it to do but quench the Spirits' edification that otherwise would bring the babes to wit for themselves God's own provision. Nope. The rolls have decided, mortals' physic serves us 'well enough, look how far we've come!'

Honestly, I had no intention of bringing immaturity into view. I see now, how very beneficial the record serves for this purpose.

Well, you're not wrong.

Consider that institutional Christianity prefers that the pew-sitters stay immature. And even if they matured, there would be no place for them in the institution, except maybe as head of the pot-luck committee that was recently vacated because of attrition.

 

[GWH]

Simply put, a portion of the full, as in full plural-side of His promises.

Nice knowing this token of attributes we are welcomed to, being a part of what promises He bestows for us.

“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature...”
(2 Peter 1:4)

Instead, there is a strange reluctance for “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, , "(John 17:22) I'll await the points of my supposed error in expectation of all the NT gifts and attributes as active yet today.

We can become like Jesus, whose righteousness manifested the divine nature, by receiving His HS (Rom. 5:5),
but we cannot become God.

Jesus taught us to glory in servanthood/love (John 13:35).