I think I've strolled around the garden-variety of points enough here where I don't need to go digging anymore. Now between us, does v35 even stand a chance to thrive if we proceeded "in spirit and in truth"?
Error that Refuses to Die
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I didn't say you strayed but I rather addressed the title of your thread and some of the specifics to the posts being presented.
The truth of the world's diminished witnessing His flock's love for another should not experience the same shield we follow as withholding our "pearls" before swine, love "endures all things" short of that. The night has been spent indoctrinating ourselves to abandon that sure passage to keep and maintain that mutual love in "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph. 4:3), all for the sake of rejoicing in one's chosen stripe, literally never looking back. Who among us does not recognize this spot of shame to all our credits? The gravity to accept some responsibility to that bond is nowhere to be seen that I can tell. Will the bond lead to dissolve disunity, or again scatter dialog? They can say it all they want to, but it's all self-deception, we have been fooled and continue to fool ourselves by thinking we maintain 'the unity of the Spirit' without that required "bond of peace". Deception number two, we know all too well, they keep the 'bond of peace' committed to the stripe, which again equals trampling the Apostle's alarm of divisions.
The truth of the world's diminished witnessing of His flock's love for another won't experience the same shield we follow as withholding our "pearls" before swine, love "endures all things" short of that. The evidence that we also need is the godly wisdom of transformed minds. But, the night has been spent indoctrinating ourselves to abandon that sure passage to keep and maintain that mutual love in "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph. 4:3), all for the sake of rejoicing in one's chosen stripe, literally never looking back. Who among us does not recognize this spot of shame to all our credits? The gravity to accept some responsibility to that bond is nowhere to be seen that I can tell. Will the bond lead to dissolve disunity, or again scatter dialog?
They can say it all they want to, but it's all self-deception, we have been fooled and continue to fool ourselves by thinking we maintain 'the unity of the Spirit' without that required "bond of peace". Deception number two, we know all too well, they keep the 'bond of peace' committed to the stripe, which again equals trampling the Apostle's alarm of divisions.
Yes, voices raise from time to time over that alarm to again fall through the cracks of labels and allegiance. "Even where there is no crack, warnings are needed." - Bengel, (Eph 4:3)
Yes, all Christians need to persevere saving faith that reflects the love of God, which is the bond of peace/unity (Rom. 5:5, Eph. 4:3).
I recognize this truth, which is why I urge everyone to agree regarding the Gospel Creed, which includes the following elements:
1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).
Thank you! Hopefully, here in the Spirit's #5, we aren't endangering that love I last emphasized such as worded in comment #6?
Typically, the reflexive 'ceased' surfaces based on strong ambiguities in the word. That which is called the general, or ecumenical councils don't include your persuasion nor mine. My difference here to recognize is, I don't lean on persuasion to again endanger that bond of peace, but commit it to the Father's timepiece of dialog. How about you?
Re endangering divine love: tulipists do.
Re persuasion: I follow the lead of Paul (Acts 17:17, 26:28, cf. Isa. 1:18a) and Peter (1Pet. 3:15b).
For reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (Matt. 27:46, Psa. 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (Acts 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (Matt. 12:39, 24:24, 1Cor. 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per Exo. 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in Acts 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. However, such miracles are rare (not normative).
My wife and I have had this very discussion this morning...
Because we see Albert Mohler have this theological position and promoting it within the SBC....as if it's right.
But we know its wrong like Calvinism is wrong and Arminianism is wrong....
But then the conversation and my point was that....
Over the 2,000 years that Jesus since set the record straight....they immediately corrupted what He said and continued long after the original apostles were dead.
Things had gotten horribly worse after they actually lost the Bible....
AND
They really did not improve a LOT after Luther "rediscovered" it....
In some ways things got worse. The fracturing of the various denominations out of the General Church (AKA: Catholic) which resulted in a holier than thou contest throughout Europe which resulted in guerilla warfare throughout Europe and even bringing that warfare here to America when it was in its infancy.
People have distorted the Message from God for 2,000 years....I do not see that changing in the future.
And I'm kinda shocked in a LOT of ways that God has let it happen to the degree He has.
Why lightning has not fallen and killed us all long before now is something of a mystery to me....makes His wanting of me a bit more understandable....but not by much..
Warped and horrible theologies have been the norm throughout the 2,000 years.
WHY?
We endure....that's a miracle too....
Because we see Albert Mohler have this theological position and promoting it within the SBC....as if it's right.
But we know its wrong like Calvinism is wrong and Arminianism is wrong....
But then the conversation and my point was that....
Over the 2,000 years that Jesus since set the record straight....they immediately corrupted what He said and continued long after the original apostles were dead.
Things had gotten horribly worse after they actually lost the Bible....
AND
They really did not improve a LOT after Luther "rediscovered" it....
In some ways things got worse. The fracturing of the various denominations out of the General Church (AKA: Catholic) which resulted in a holier than thou contest throughout Europe which resulted in guerilla warfare throughout Europe and even bringing that warfare here to America when it was in its infancy.
People have distorted the Message from God for 2,000 years....I do not see that changing in the future.
And I'm kinda shocked in a LOT of ways that God has let it happen to the degree He has.
Why lightning has not fallen and killed us all long before now is something of a mystery to me....makes His wanting of me a bit more understandable....but not by much..
Warped and horrible theologies have been the norm throughout the 2,000 years.
WHY?
We endure....that's a miracle too....
Good point. The corruption of the NT and consequent Dark Ages is documented in the History of Beliefs thread;
Ditto re being surprised God allowed it to happen, although 2,000 years is like two days in the Lord's timeframe
per 2Pet. 3:8.
Enlightenment did not occur until the invention of the printing press made it possible for poor people to obtain a copy of the Bible and political freedom in America enabled religious freedom.
The Reformation stemming from Luther's discovery....
It wasn't exactly the same as the English Reformation.
The English reformation was almost the last one to happen.
There was a TON of resentment for the translating...even though King Henry 8th used Tyndale's exact translation and compilation in his Bible called the Great Bible. He had him killed due to a political discussion....and Tyndale said that the scriptures do not address his position. So Henry had him killed.
Then came Bloody Mary....and everyone was exiled.
But because of that exile, we got the calvinists who ran to Geneva. Which later created and pumped thousands upon thousands of Geneva Bibles into England(Britain), Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. Which Elizabeth (The Virgin Queen) mostly had zero opinion on....but she didn't say she did not like them either. Instead we Got Shakespear, Sir Fracis Drake, and the swashbuckling tales of pirates in and around the Americas in the warm waters of the southern Islands.
Yes, Reformation was a long process. Here are relevant excerpts from the HOB thread detailing what followed Elizabeth. Note that enlightenment defined as living in accordance with NT teachings did not occur until the revival circa 1736, but that also was a process that continued into the 1800s and the end of slavery.
In 1610, followers of Jacob Arminius (called Remonstrants) published a document objecting to Calvin’s deterministic doctrine of predestination. The King James Bible was produced in 1611. Galileo was arrested by the RC Inquisition and prohibited from scientific work in 1616. The Synod of Dort condemned Arminianism in 1619. Pilgrims seeking separation from the Church of England founded a colony at Plymouth in 1620, governed by the Mayflower Compact. In 1621 Johann Kepler’s work was banned by RC. In 1624, Jacob Boehme published three books that influenced subsequent theosophists. In 1629, the Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded by Puritans who wanted to cleanse the Anglican Church from vestiges of RC. In 1637, Rene Descartes published Discourse on Method, containing his famous maxim, “I think, therefore I am.”
In 1648, George Fox founded the Society of Friends (Quakers), who valued inner light over dogmatism and creedalism. In 1651, Thomas Hobbes published Leviathan, in which he argued that it is in peoples’ rational self-interest to make a “social contract”, ceding personal liberty to an absolute sovereign for the sake of civil peace. In 1654, Blaise Pascal formulated theories of probability, later applying this to theology in his Pensees as “Pascal’s Wager”. In that year, Baruch Spinoza completed his Ethics, in which he espoused pantheism, determinism and Stoicism. In 1681, William Penn obtained a royal charter for Pennsylvania, where he guaranteed freedom of religion and elected government. In 1684, John Bunyan completed Pilgrim’s Progress, a Christian allegory. In 1689, John Locke published Two Treatises, the first rejecting the divine right of kings, and the second advocating for natural rights and consent of the governed, which influenced the English Parliament to issue a Declaration of Rights.
In 1690, Locke published An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, in which he established empiricism, according to which the mind begins as a blank slate and develops knowledge from experiences. In 1692-93, witchcraft trials were held in Salem, and 25 people were killed. In 1696, John Toland founded deism, stating in Christianity not Mysterious that reason is superior to revelation and what contradicts reason is not revelation. In 1710, George Berkeley published a treatise in which he argued that “to be means to be perceived”, which means that we know ideas, not objects (subjectivism). In 1710, Gottfried Leibniz published Theodicee, in which he espoused optimism, that God would create the best possible world. He also postulated the existence of metaphysical monads as the ultimate essence of the universe. In 1716, Christianity was banned from China (like Japan in 1637).
The first freemason Grand Lodge was formed in London in 1717. Freemasonry used the stonemasonry square and compass as symbols of virtue, and promoted service to the Great Architect, but prohibited discussion of politics and religion. (It was condemned by the Pope in 1736.) In 1722, Count Zinzendorf founded a Moravian settlement called Herrnhut, stressing that “there can be no Christianity without community” (communalism). In 1730, John and Charles Wesley founded Methodism, seeking to revive the Church of England.
In 1736, John Wesley (an Arminian) and George Whitefield (a Calvinist) led the “First Great Awakening” spiritual revival in the British colonies in America (revivalism), which encouraged living in accordance with New Testament teachings.
In 1740, Frederick II allows freedom of worship and of the press in Prussia. In 1741, Jonathan Edwards delivered a famous sermon in Massachusetts, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”, which popularized Calvinist theology.
The increased rationalist philosophical activity that began in the previous period continued during this and succeeding ones, becoming increasingly deist and atheist. In 1748, David Hume published A Treatise of Human Nature, which advocated skepticism–atheism and influenced Immanuel Kant. Hume discussed the problem of inductive reasoning and the uniformity of natural operations, saying that we are instinctually/necessarily compelled to believe things behave in a regular manner (in the absence of verified miracles) or have objective existence or are moral. Also in 1748, Emanuel Swedenborg claimed to have a spiritual awakening and a commission from God to reform Christianity. He published Heaven and Hell in 1758, saying that both faith and charity are necessary for salvation. In 1749, Gotthold Lessing published The Freethinker, advocating freedom of thought and the sufficiency of human reason.
In France, Voltaire, a deist, criticized the government and RC Church and devalued the Bible as an outdated human work, although saying, “If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.” His most popular writing was Candide (1759), which satirized the optimism of Leibniz. A contemporary, J.J. Rousseau, was exiled from France after he published Emile, or On Education in 1762, which espoused Unitarianism and religious equivalence, while rejecting sin and divine revelation. His valuing of the simple rural life or natural man over corrupt urban political society in his first book, New Heloise, influenced romanticism. In The Social Contract (1762), he advocated Locke’s view on government checked by the general will of its populace. In 1777, Lessing published a work advocating tolerance of all religions.
In 1781, Immanuel Kant published Critique of Pure Reason, which is viewed as a philosophical watershed. He posited that the mind is not a blank slate, but rather it contains innate categories that shape experience, which was a sort of compromise or synthesis of the rationalist and empiricist positions. He also distinguished analytic propositions, which are tautological definitions, from synthetic propositions, which add a predicate concept that needs verification by experience. Joseph Priestley published A History of the Corruptions of Christianity in 1782, which influenced Thomas Jefferson’s ideology. He followed Spinoza in affirming materialism (no mind-body dualism) and determinism. He had assisted Theophilus Lindsey in founding the Unitarian denomination in 1774. In 1776, Moses Mendelssohn published Phadon or On the Immortality of Souls, after which he was compared to both Plato and Moses and later called the father of the Jewish Enlightenment for affirming religious tolerance and the priority of reason over revelation.
Lengthy. No commentary on the relationship between New Testament enlightenment as in comment #6 and a few of these? But I'm beginning to weary from the pattern you appear fixated on, as in nothing whatsoever concerning bringing even young converts to experience the Vine as they did in Acts and elsewhere before said enlightenment (hopefully, not code for come and trample the gift of tongues/prophesy. That Spirit and truth is then therefore nullified.
I still don't get what "false gospel" we're talking about here. Can someone explain it in plain English please?
You nailed it.
To teach nothing else but Jesus and Him crucified is the wonderful beginning of spiritual growth that immature, carnal believers must be fed.
But there is so much more that needs to be taught as Christians grow in experience and maturity.
Many years ago, I tried to explain this to an online church pastor. He ended the conversation, saying that I was making him feel uncomfortable.
Hi. No, I left it out on purpose so any one of the forms or accusations of 'false gospel', wouldn't reduce the point of the thread. Nevertheless, you deserve a suitable response, hopefully. In a word and with the help of 'Aaron56', any New Testament aberration being instructed as foundational/commonly held traditions, centralizing on the constraints of the 'unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace'.
@GWH put up a whole list describing both decent but irrelevant theologies and outright heresies....
I can easily see that its confusing for those who dont know proper theologies to begin with and then to be uneducated as far as historical theologies as like the ones which came out of the Synod at Dort...(promoted calvinism)
This is where dry reading and understanding of history are absolutely needed...(none of it's fun stuff)
And of course everyone starts using a bunch of fifty cent and seventy-five cent words everywhere to say anything....
Some of it's like reading the Geneva Bible with earlier Olde English than what Shakespeare used. (Not easy or fun)
What GWH and I were discussing was the garbage that came out because of the proliferation of scriptures....in many ways it was better than what we had....but in others it was a disaster train wreck....with lethal consequences due to the guerrilla wars. The amount of grace and charitable actions was nonexistent....which got met by those claiming to be Deists...people who did not want to subscribe to any particular organized church. Mostly due to the warfare they all were engaged in.
They fought and had bloodshed over stupid things like ecumenical collars....no different from handwashing in Jesus day, (I'm picking out various examples....nothing is precisely all the fights were over)
Some of these arguments are not originally written in English either....ancient German, Swiss, French and Italian languages were also employed.
I don't care about GWH's list. I wanted to know what PAC-fit was talking about by the "false gospel" he mentioned in his original post. I still don't know and suspect I never will.
The OP asks this question: Jesus said "God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” But then here comes Paul who is given the deepest revelations straight from Jesus who said, "for I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." Do some Christian circles use the message of the crucified Savior to distance itself from the Spirit of the Savior?
The answer is that Christian circles should not distance themselves from Christ's atonement and Spirit. (both-and)
Good call 'RA'! It truly should have been re-worded.
Thanks 'GWH', if you will, just a bit further. For many wish to champion, receiving the joy of the Spirit at salvation, but who at the same time deny the full potential of the Gospel promise to also live with the power of the Spirit. One of today's longstanding religious examples of irony from the perpetrators of this false Gospel, while they themselves claiming to be the watchmen who guard us from 'false Gospel'. Now if you present to them 2Timothy 3:5 warning:
"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
Why should myself or any other maintaining anything less from the promise be the ones faulted? This very error triggers life from soundness for accuracy to say that every Christian who disagrees with the collective understanding of the NT power of the Spirit are themselves necessarily preaching "a false gospel" without gray or secondary meanings.
My question, how are they ever to recover if resistant to loving exhortation?