Error that Refuses to Die

[PAC-fit]

Passages such as James 3, where heavenly wisdom is described as "pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason..." will however much time it takes, eventually be forced to decide, does the call of the Spirit's bond between us always hit upon that unchanging Spirit's direction? Not love of denominationalism, not by gainsay, but by the same as it has always been, One, "that the church may receive edification" (1 Cor 14:5).

 

[biblestudent78]

Not many within the community of churchianity even know the history behind the institutional model as to why it is the way it is. They have no clue how Roman Catholic they are in some practices, if not entirely by doctrine.

MM

I believe there is much greater affinity between what is commonly believed by Protestants and the Orthodox Church more so than Roman Catholicism.

 

[Musicmaster]

I believe there is much greater affinity between what is commonly believed by Protestants and the Orthodox Church more so than Roman Catholicism.

Both are spin-offs from the RCC.

MM

 

[biblestudent78]

Music Master
This was not a spinoff. This was a massive change of direction in 1054. At that point the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today was just forming. This rejected Eastern Orthodoxy as valid "Christianity" and prevented it from influencing the evolution of Roman Catholicism.

Since the time of that split here is the theological evolution of the Roman Church. They developed
1054 - Transubstantiation and the 7 sacraments
1274 - Purgatory
Papal Authority and Supremacy
1854 - Immaculate Conception of Mary
1870 - Papal Infallibility
The bodily Assumption of Mary
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father & the Son (Eastern - From the Father only)

Then the Roman Catholic Church in Vatican II called on the Eastern Church to "strip Latinization (Roman Catholic influence) and "Rediscover authentic Eastern theology and it's liturgical and spiritual roots."

While certain similarities remain between the modern Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Eastern Church uses a very different religious vocabulary with more mystical and spiritual language devoid of any reference to the idealization of the Churches leader. It is also important to note that there is no single universal Eastern Orthodox Church as it has no Pope of Supreme Magisterial structure.

Many countries have their own versions of the Eastern Orthodox Church, often organized as autocephalous (self-governing) churches. Here are some notable examples:
Russia: Home to the largest Eastern Orthodox population, with the Russian Orthodox Church being the most prominent.
Greece: The Greek Orthodox Church is a major branch, deeply rooted in the country's history.
Serbia: The Serbian Orthodox Church serves the Serbian population and has a significant following.
Bulgaria: The Bulgarian Orthodox Church is one of the oldest Slavic churches.
Romania: The Romanian Orthodox Church is the largest religious denomination in Romania.
Georgia: The Georgian Orthodox Church has a rich history and is one of the oldest Christian communities.
Cyprus: The Church of Cyprus is an autocephalous church with a significant role in Cypriot society.
Albania: The Albanian Orthodox Church serves the Orthodox community in Albania

Thus the Eastern Orthodox Church in all its nationalistic variations, adapts to the political and social pressures in the various societies in which it operates. While it is easy to see the world-changing impact of the adoption of a modified Christianity crafted to suite the needs of the Roman State, it is likewise obvious that the Eastern Orthodox Church in more modern times has adapted itself to various political, ethnic and cultural demands as well. In each country in which there is a national Orthodox Church there is a close to very close connection with the political power of that nation.

 

[Musicmaster]

Music Master
This was not a spinoff. This was a massive change of direction in 1054. At that point the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today was just forming. This rejected Eastern Orthodoxy as valid "Christianity" and prevented it from influencing the evolution of Roman Catholicism.

Since the time of that split here is the theological evolution of the Roman Church. They developed
1054 - Transubstantiation and the 7 sacraments
1274 - Purgatory
Papal Authority and Supremacy
1854 - Immaculate Conception of Mary
1870 - Papal Infallibility
The bodily Assumption of Mary
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father & the Son (Eastern - From the Father only)

Then the Roman Catholic Church in Vatican II called on the Eastern Church to "strip Latinization (Roman Catholic influence) and "Rediscover authentic Eastern theology and it's liturgical and spiritual roots."

While certain similarities remain between the modern Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Eastern Church uses a very different religious vocabulary with more mystical and spiritual language devoid of any reference to the idealization of the Churches leader. It is also important to note that there is no single universal Eastern Orthodox Church as it has no Pope of Supreme Magisterial structure.

Many countries have their own versions of the Eastern Orthodox Church, often organized as autocephalous (self-governing) churches. Here are some notable examples:
Russia: Home to the largest Eastern Orthodox population, with the Russian Orthodox Church being the most prominent.
Greece: The Greek Orthodox Church is a major branch, deeply rooted in the country's history.
Serbia: The Serbian Orthodox Church serves the Serbian population and has a significant following.
Bulgaria: The Bulgarian Orthodox Church is one of the oldest Slavic churches.
Romania: The Romanian Orthodox Church is the largest religious denomination in Romania.
Georgia: The Georgian Orthodox Church has a rich history and is one of the oldest Christian communities.
Cyprus: The Church of Cyprus is an autocephalous church with a significant role in Cypriot society.
Albania: The Albanian Orthodox Church serves the Orthodox community in Albania

Thus the Eastern Orthodox Church in all its nationalistic variations, adapts to the political and social pressures in the various societies in which it operates. While it is easy to see the world-changing impact of the adoption of a modified Christianity crafted to suite the needs of the Roman State, it is likewise obvious that the Eastern Orthodox Church in more modern times has adapted itself to various political, ethnic and cultural demands as well. In each country in which there is a national Orthodox Church there is a close to very close connection with the political power of that nation.

What I meant was that the form of it all remained fairly intact, if not the ideologies and doctrinal paradigms. We're actually pretty much in agreement.

MM

 

[biblestudent78]

What I meant was that the form of it all remained fairly intact, if not the ideologies and doctrinal paradigms. We're actually pretty much in agreement.

MM

As usual.

 

[PAC-fit]

What's sad is that the masses don't realize the difference with most having never experience true, biblical fellowship.

What I'm having trouble realizing is just how far apart is both of our perspectives of 'true biblical fellowship'? Certain, my support of the spiritual witness and NT pastoral stewardship are now known. IMO, if any deliberately opposes the acknowledgement of these, all fellowship is sub-biblical.

 

[biblestudent78]

PAC-fit
I have no idea of what "true biblical fellowship" is. You love and care for your neighbor even if they are not a Christian, so what is different about loving and respecting different expression of the love of God by Christian people who were fed different dogmas than you. Does your discomfort with the worship practices or the iconography or the music or their "history" preclude them from the love of God? Does God hate all but your sect? If not, what role does our command to become lovers of all people play?

 

[Roger316]

Passages such as James 3, where heavenly wisdom is described as "pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason..." will however much time it takes, eventually be forced to decide, does the call of the Spirit's bond between us always hit upon that unchanging Spirit's direction? Not love of denominationalism, not by gainsay, but by the same as it has always been, One, "that the church may receive edification" (1 Cor 14:5).

It depends on where People take their stand. There are those who will defend their denominational position even when passages of Scripture are presented as counterfactuals. They will say, "Your interpretation must be wrong because if you are right, I couldn't be a [place denomination here] There are other people who will defend the truth, even if they discover that their denomination is wrong.

 

[PAC-fit]

You love and care for your neighbor even if they are not a Christian, so what is different about loving and respecting different expression of the love of God by Christian people who were fed different dogmas than you.

Where am I seen taking 'love and care' which is perfect, to be the rogue element in that care? Reminding me of how His servant started off our great latitude as Christians, yet noted a guard for the flock,

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, , You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is."

It is clear here, that those who testify to the truth are not the ones troubling "different dogmas, expressions". But, then again, ,

 

[PAC-fit]

It depends on where People take their stand. There are those who will defend their denominational position even when passages of Scripture are presented as counterfactuals. They will say, "Your interpretation must be wrong because if you are right, I couldn't be a [place denomination here] There are other people who will defend the truth, even if they discover that their denomination is wrong.

You have just cornered my present fellowship held by a love His tender leading nevertheless, has taught me to abide in. If you the reader are anywhere near this compromising fellowship, under well-seasoned Church oversight, being thick-skinned won't work on it's own. You commit to Him for the keeping with walking prayer and real time leading. What makes the difference between a life of "7 falls to rise again" steadfastness and those caught in mischief of turning from His truth are those who struggle for His joy.

My prayer is that we would all draw nearer to Christ, allowing His "promise"—not our traditions, preferences, fears, or past experiences—to be our final authority. Sometimes we speak of certain spiritual blessings as though they are inaccessible, reserved for another age, no longer intended for God's people. As you opened, 'it depends on where people' are, reveals what has settled in our hearts for what we choose to defend.

I often fail to give what it deserves to be approached with humility to let Scripture speak before our traditions do. The question whether every claimed spiritual manifestation is genuine—scripture commands us to "test everything" and to "hold fast what is good." Reasoning in prayer and with discernment is essential. God has given gifts for the edification of His Church, shouldn't we seek to understand them as the Scriptures present them?

The greatest danger may not be deception alone which everyone deals with to some level. It may also be closing the door before we have even examined what God has said. Fear can come just as great a hindrance as gullibility.

There are other people who will defend the truth, even if they discover that their denomination is wrong.

While true for me, my flagship denom Pentecostal difference is altogether sharper than my current Lutheran visiting. I continue to tarry in that.

 

[GWH]

It depends on where People take their stand. There are those who will defend their denominational position even when passages of Scripture are presented as counterfactuals. They will say, "Your interpretation must be wrong because if you are right, I couldn't be a [place denomination here] There are other people who will defend the truth, even if they discover that their denomination is wrong.

"Other" included me when I read Scripture for myself in my late teens and discovered sixteen passages indicating that my Baptist denomination's affirmation of the P/OSAS in TULIP was wrong.

 

[biblestudent78]

Where am I seen taking 'love and care' which is perfect, to be the rogue element in that care? Reminding me of how His servant started off our great latitude as Christians, yet noted a guard for the flock,

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, , You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is."

It is clear here, that those who testify to the truth are not the ones troubling "different dogmas, expressions". But, then again, ,

Taking the Pontius Pilate lead..what is this truth of which you speak? What is the truth about how one gets "saved?" What is the truth about authority within the church? What is the truth about free will versus predestination? What is the truth about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts? What is the truth about the impossibility of rich going to heaven? What is the truth about taking up your cross daily?

 

[PAC-fit]

What is the truth about taking up your cross daily?

Although this one is and should be combined with the rest of these 'truths', this one what waits for all adherents to acknowledge, ", , and follow me." Our Lord did not simply call us to deny ourselves. He called us to follow Him. Now if I hear you correctly, I assume you think:

'The Christian life is intended to train for the preservation of what God has already begun in us, without distraction!'

Is that right? Is the very thought of continual discovery considered a threat? The promises of God (life and power) are not arranged as though one promise threatens another. Eternal life does not diminish His power, and His power does not overshadow His love. Every promise harmonizes perfectly with every other promise because they all flow from the same unchanging God. Things in God's word that we for ages may have concluded unprofitable, often, hold the potential for growth within the Church, as God is known for cleansing by faith. What is the truth about taking up your cross daily and following Him? Paul offers the practical application when he concludes his letter to the Ephesians, he does not write, "Remain only where you first believed." He, the Holy Spirit through him writes;

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might."

Every genuine work of the Holy Spirit magnifies Jesus Christ. He never competes with the Son; He glorifies Him. He never replaces the Scriptures; He illuminates them. He never exalts Himself; He exalts Christ. So, it's not for us to ask what we may safely decline from, but what our gracious Lord delights to give. The preservation of the Christian life is not known by its minimum requirements, but by the immeasurable riches of Christ.

Your many truths isn't the way I would present the biblical example of a mature Christian's press for those riches. If there remains more of Christ to know, let us know Him. If there remains more of His wisdom, let us seek it. If there remains more of His strength, let us receive it. If there remains more of His Spirit's sanctifying work, let us welcome it with humble and discerning hearts.

For the Christian's greatest safety has never been found in drawing careful boundaries around God, but in drawing ever nearer to Him. The safety surrounds us with joyful confidence that "every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights", who has never ceased to be faithful.

 

[biblestudent78]

Although this one is and should be combined with the rest of these 'truths', this one what waits for all adherents to acknowledge, ", , and follow me." Our Lord did not simply call us to deny ourselves. He called us to follow Him. Now if I hear you correctly, I assume you think:

'The Christian life is intended to train for the preservation of what God has already begun in us, without distraction!'

Is that right? Is the very thought of continual discovery considered a threat? The promises of God (life and power) are not arranged as though one promise threatens another. Eternal life does not diminish His power, and His power does not overshadow His love. Every promise harmonizes perfectly with every other promise because they all flow from the same unchanging God. Things in God's word that we for ages may have concluded unprofitable, often, hold the potential for growth within the Church, as God is known for cleansing by faith. What is the truth about taking up your cross daily and following Him? Paul offers the practical application when he concludes his letter to the Ephesians, he does not write, "Remain only where you first believed." He, the Holy Spirit through him writes;

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might."

Every genuine work of the Holy Spirit magnifies Jesus Christ. He never competes with the Son; He glorifies Him. He never replaces the Scriptures; He illuminates them. He never exalts Himself; He exalts Christ. So, it's not for us to ask what we may safely decline from, but what our gracious Lord delights to give. The preservation of the Christian life is not known by its minimum requirements, but by the immeasurable riches of Christ.

Your many truths isn't the way I would present the biblical example of a mature Christian's press for those riches. If there remains more of Christ to know, let us know Him. If there remains more of His wisdom, let us seek it. If there remains more of His strength, let us receive it. If there remains more of His Spirit's sanctifying work, let us welcome it with humble and discerning hearts.

For the Christian's greatest safety has never been found in drawing careful boundaries around God, but in drawing ever nearer to Him. The safety surrounds us with joyful confidence that "every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights", who has never ceased to be faithful.

PAC-fit well thought out. Perhaps the core division in Christianity is not so much about denominational divisions and varying understandings of the scriptures but the assumption that one can learn all that is important to know about God in Sunday School. Perhaps our Millennial quest it to find a way to put God in our box and claim Him as a static, rational and emotional being much like ourselves and "knowing Him" is something that can only be by church attendance.

Perhaps the greatest failure of modern Christianity that we uniquely claim to "know God's will." (while violently disagreeing with others about the particulars) Once we believe what we are told about God, we no longer seek God. We no longer seek intellectual, emotional or spiritual growth out of fear it might lead us over our partisan party lines in which our God is contained. Seeking God's will is either a texturally filtered reassurance that continuously validates everything we already "know" or it is the most important life long journey of discovery a human can experience.

I have always been amazed that century by century we claim total mastery over God's Will, but don't seem to have a clue about God's Heart. We want formulas, dogmas, creeds, catechisms and ordinances that clearly put Our God in Our Box, but never seem to question if we are in God's box? Is the very belief that our church, our denomination our national organization has defined all the God that is or that we need? Is the claim we "know the perfect will of God the most arrogant thing a human can say? If we believe it is then your God may be too small, to customized, too compliant, too limited and to much made in our image instead of the other way around,

 

[PAC-fit]

Is the claim we "know the perfect will of God the most arrogant thing a human can say? If we believe it is then your God may be too small, to customized, too compliant, too limited and to much made in our image instead of the other way around,

Holding that mantel too close to heart after the definition from His word went forth, would end up fulfilling the same. For I am now having trouble distinguishing from the "well thought out" response you say I gave from ancient Elijah's call,

“How long will you waver between two opinions [the cross promise or, the cross and power promises]? If the LORD is God, follow him, , ” But the people said nothing." (1Kings 18:21)

 

[PAC-fit]

The natural man wishes for us to believe that 'very few people are argued into spiritual hunger.' But that is only true in the hands of an ill-equipped messenger. They are more correctly captivated into it by His Spirit. Still, to our weak forerunners, Jesus gently exposed how little the disciples expected, "O ye of little faith." A call of faith still resonates. The early Church began with Christians becoming so deeply occupied with Christ that others eventually asked, "What meaneth this?" or today, "What has happened to you?" People just don't follow this in following Him because they don't feel safe enough to do so.

 

[biblestudent78]

The natural man wishes for us to believe that 'very few people are argued into spiritual hunger.' But that is only true in the hands of an ill-equipped messenger. They are more correctly captivated into it by His Spirit. Still, to our weak forerunners, Jesus gently exposed how little the disciples expected, "O ye of little faith." A call of faith still resonates. The early Church began with Christians becoming so deeply occupied with Christ that others eventually asked, "What meaneth this?" or today, "What has happened to you?" People just don't follow this in following Him because they don't feel safe enough to do so.

PAC-fit:
IMHO, The greatest lie commonly believed is that the objective is "faith," usually defined as "In something" (Church, dogmas, creeds, catechisms and the Jesus defined by those dictates. I am willing to let all Christian faiths be judged by what their faith claim leads them to do. To be reborned in word, thought and deed. To take up our daily cross in service to our "neighbors." To become over time expert in healing both mental and physical, consoling, reconciling, loving and rejoicing with other human beings. Jesus life on earth was a dire warning to those who "clung to a religion, but denied the power of it." The power of Christianity is in the surrendered life. If what we claim as faith is not foundational in our being born again into the image of Jesus, then it is just belief in a vain hope that believing some scripted man made holy words is anything but human vanity.

If you hold the image of and the reality of Jesus, then you can answer the real question: who would you bleed for? Who would you die for? Who would you give your wealth for? Who would you weep for? However you answer these and other question of life and purpose will tell you all you need to know about what you actually believe. If it is not self sacrifice driven by love both horizontal and vertical then what else is worthy?

 

[PAC-fit]

", , the real question: who would you bleed for? Who would you die for? Who would you give your wealth for? Who would you weep for? However you answer these and other question of life and purpose will tell you all you need to know about what you actually believe. If it is not self sacrifice driven by love both horizontal and vertical then what else is worthy?

No sir, not the real question in the manner of your use of it, for you choose silence from the trench. Thank God, He cut any religiosity far from the "promises".

"For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us, , [they did not pass, but the] promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself”, "‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people."

But it isn't to be shelved which is why you should have finished the verse's warning: ", , having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

Denying it's power? Why 'no one is doing that!' But, as Elijah said, the people withheld their amen then, and they withhold themselves from the power now who occasions themselves with a feeling of perfect security and fears no coming judgment with silent denial. "Woe to them that are at ease in Zion."

But, forgive me of my own failure of abiding to that warning. It is now in place and ready under Christ to suffer being shelved lest any signal rising out of 'the people's silence' of stout-hearted contention towards the promise of power.

 

[biblestudent78]

No sir, not the real question in the manner of your use of it, for you choose silence from the trench. T

"For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us, , [they did not pass, but the] promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself”, "‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people."

But it isn't to be shelved which is why you should have finished the verse's warning: ", , having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

Denying it's power? Why 'no one is doing that!' But, as Elijah said, the people withheld their amen then, and they withhold themselves from the power now who occasions themselves with a feeling of perfect security and fears no coming judgment with silent denial. "Woe to them that are at ease in Zion."

But, forgive me of my own failure of abiding to that warning. It is now in place and ready under Christ to suffer being shelved lest any signal rising out of 'the people's silence' of stout-hearted contention towards the promise of power.

(you choose silence from the trench) I have no clue about what you are attempting to say or how it relates to what I wrote.
The same confusion continues: "Thank God, He cut any religiosity far from the "promises".
I find your Hebrew Bible quotes lack any context - as many use the bible for "useful snippets" I understand the methodology. It can only result in incoherence also known as biblebabble.