Faith alone, faith plus works? Something is missing in this discussion

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I guess 43K denominations isn't enough.
That is a false number based on an egregious misunderstanding.

That misunderstanding gets thrown around as if it were truth when it is not.
Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are
nowhere close to 43,000 denominations. Many of these groups are merely subgroups
of larger denominational groups such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, or Baptists.


Evangelical apologist Eric Svendsen exposes the falsehood of this fabrication. Briefly:

Svendsen shows that the source of this figure is the World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford
University Press, 1982). Barrett cites a figure of 20,780 denominations. Still, not all of them are Protestants.
According to Barrett, Protestants account for 8,196 (and incidentally, Roman Catholics account for 223).


However, even this figure of eight thousand Protestant denominations is misleading, for Barrett defines
"distinct denominations" as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group.
The distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.


Barrett breaks down the Protestant bloc into twenty-one major "traditions" which are much closer to what we usually
mean by the word "denominations." It is interesting that Roman Catholics are subdivided into sixteen such "traditions."


Svendsen concludes, "In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly - and, as a result, irresponsibly - glanced
at Barrett's work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded."
source
 

TheLearner

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Not really. Baptism is transliterated not translated from the Greek word baptizo which means to dip, plunge, immerse. Pour and sprinkle arre different words with different meanings and are not interchangeable with baptizo. So, if you had water poured on you or sprinkled on you, you weren't baptized, and if not baptized you're not saved.
Ezekiel 36:25
Easy-to-Read Version
25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
 

DJT_47

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Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
Chapter 7 of what??? NOT THE BIBLE and they whomever they were, gad no right or authority to alter God's word.
 

TheLearner

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Exodus 9:8
And the Lord said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.

Exodus 9:10
And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast.

Exodus 24:6
And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

Exodus 29:16
And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.

Exodus 29:20
Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

Exodus 29:21
And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
 

TheLearner

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Chapter 7 of what??? NOT THE BIBLE and they whomever they were, gad no right or authority to alter God's word.
The Didache is an early Church Manual. The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles. Brother.
 

TheLearner

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Leviticus 1:5
And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Leviticus 1:11
And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.

Leviticus 3:2
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

Leviticus 3:8
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle the blood thereof round about upon the altar.

Leviticus 3:13
And he shall lay his hand upon the head of it, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle the blood thereof upon the altar round about.

Leviticus 4:6
And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the vail of the sanctuary.

Leviticus 4:17
And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the Lord, even before the vail.

Leviticus 5:9
And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.

Leviticus 6:27
Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

Leviticus 7:2
In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.

Leviticus 7:14
And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the Lord, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

Leviticus 8:11
And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them.

Leviticus 8:19
And he killed it; and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 8:24
And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.

Leviticus 8:30
And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

Leviticus 9:12
And he slew the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar.

Leviticus 9:18
He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,

Leviticus 14:7
And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
Leviticus 14:16
And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the Lord:

Leviticus 14:27
And the priest shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand seven times before the Lord:

Leviticus 14:51
And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

Leviticus 16:14
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

Leviticus 16:15
Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Leviticus 16:19
And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Leviticus 17:6
And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
 

TheLearner

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Numbers 8:7
And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Numbers 18:17
But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the Lord.

Numbers 19:4
And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:

Numbers 19:13
Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

Numbers 19:18
And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

Numbers 19:19
And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

Numbers 19:20
But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the Lord: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.

Numbers 19:21
And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.

2 Kings 9:33
And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.

2 Kings 16:13
And he burnt his burnt offering and his meat offering, and poured his drink offering, and sprinkled the blood of his peace offerings, upon the altar.

2 Kings 16:15
And king Ahaz commanded Urijah the priest, saying, Upon the great altar burn the morning burnt offering, and the evening meat offering, and the king's burnt sacrifice, and his meat offering, with the burnt offering of all the people of the land, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings; and sprinkle upon it all the blood of the burnt offering, and all the blood of the sacrifice: and the brasen altar shall be for me to enquire by.

2 Chronicles 29:22
So they killed the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar: likewise, when they had killed the rams, they sprinkled the blood upon the altar: they killed also the lambs, and they sprinkled the blood upon the altar.

2 Chronicles 30:16
And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

2 Chronicles 35:11
And they killed the passover, and the priests sprinkled the blood from their hands, and the Levites flayed them.

Job 2:12
And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.

Isaiah 52:15
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Ezekiel 36:25
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 43:18
And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.

Hebrews 9:19
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 9:21
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
 

DJT_47

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Exodus 9:8
And the Lord said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.

Exodus 9:10
And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast.

Exodus 24:6
And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

Exodus 29:16
And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.

Exodus 29:20
Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

Exodus 29:21
And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
And after all the above? What's That your point, that they sprinkled things in the OT? So what? What does that have to do with the subject of baptism??? NOTHING!
 

DJT_47

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The Didache is an early Church Manual. The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles. Brother.
The did ache is NOT the scriptures, the Holy Word of God. It's garbage
 

TheLearner

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Eze 36
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

One must look at the background of Baptism, rather than follow late comers, who are not even Jewish.
 

DJT_47

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Eze 36
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

One must look at the background of Baptism, rather than follow late comers, who are not even Jewish.
Yes agreed, and you can start with John the Baptist in Luke 3.
 

NightTwister

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Not really. Baptism is transliterated not translated from the Greek word baptizo which means to dip, plunge, immerse. Pour and sprinkle arre different words with different meanings and are not interchangeable with baptizo. So, if you had water poured on you or sprinkled on you, you weren't baptized, and if not baptized you're not saved.
Well that's a whole other discussion, but there is sound biblical support for paedobaptism.
 

TheLearner

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That is a false number based on an egregious misunderstanding.

That misunderstanding gets thrown around as if it were truth when it is not.
Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are
nowhere close to 43,000 denominations. Many of these groups are merely subgroups
of larger denominational groups such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, or Baptists.


Evangelical apologist Eric Svendsen exposes the falsehood of this fabrication. Briefly:

Svendsen shows that the source of this figure is the World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford
University Press, 1982). Barrett cites a figure of 20,780 denominations. Still, not all of them are Protestants.
According to Barrett, Protestants account for 8,196 (and incidentally, Roman Catholics account for 223).


However, even this figure of eight thousand Protestant denominations is misleading, for Barrett defines
"distinct denominations" as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group.
The distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.


Barrett breaks down the Protestant bloc into twenty-one major "traditions" which are much closer to what we usually
mean by the word "denominations." It is interesting that Roman Catholics are subdivided into sixteen such "traditions."


Svendsen concludes, "In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly - and, as a result, irresponsibly - glanced
at Barrett's work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded."
source
I had personal contact the authors of that work use socail studies definition of demonination. They are not useing Theological definitions.
Even Catholic Apologetists have refuted the inflated numbers. So, anyone using nonsense like that shows all they have not done any real reasearch.
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
2,098
790
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That is a false number based on an egregious misunderstanding.

That misunderstanding gets thrown around as if it were truth when it is not.
Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are
nowhere close to 43,000 denominations. Many of these groups are merely subgroups
of larger denominational groups such as Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, or Baptists.


Evangelical apologist Eric Svendsen exposes the falsehood of this fabrication. Briefly:

Svendsen shows that the source of this figure is the World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford
University Press, 1982). Barrett cites a figure of 20,780 denominations. Still, not all of them are Protestants.
According to Barrett, Protestants account for 8,196 (and incidentally, Roman Catholics account for 223).


However, even this figure of eight thousand Protestant denominations is misleading, for Barrett defines
"distinct denominations" as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group.
The distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.


Barrett breaks down the Protestant bloc into twenty-one major "traditions" which are much closer to what we usually
mean by the word "denominations." It is interesting that Roman Catholics are subdivided into sixteen such "traditions."


Svendsen concludes, "In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly - and, as a result, irresponsibly - glanced
at Barrett's work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded."
source
Of course it's hyperbole. Catholics use it all the time, ignoring the "in practice" doctrinal differences in their own organization.
 

DJT_47

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Well that's a whole other discussion, but there is sound biblical support for paedobaptism.
Zero biblical support for infant baptism, actually, less than zero. And even less than that for sprinkling or pouring water on infants and calling that baptism!
 

NightTwister

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Jul 5, 2023
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I had personal contact the authors of that work use socail studies definition of demonination. They are not useing Theological definitions.
Even Catholic Apologetists have refuted the inflated numbers. So, anyone using nonsense like that shows all they have not done any real reasearch.
Lighten up, Francis. It's hyperbole.
 

TheLearner

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The did ache is NOT the scriptures, the Holy Word of God. It's garbage
It is spelled Didache, it is a historial source of what the early church believed!!!! One who interprets the Bible from their own culture and background will make big mistakes like you my friend, Brother were taught.
 

TheLearner

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Which books were removed from the New Testament in AD 367 by Athanasius of Alexandria, in AD393 by the Council of Hippo and in AD397 by the Council of Carthage?


  • IT IS MISLEADING to talk of books being "removed" from the New Testament; not until well into the fourth Century AD was there agreement on what the canon of the New Testament actually was. This came about after a long and gradual process, and was in the form of an accepted consensus rather than a formal statement. In fact, no Ecumenical Council ever made a definitive pronouncement on the subject, reflecting the fact that this was one issue in the early church which was singularly free of controversy. Before this time, various lists of books had been in circulation in different areas. From these we can identify five principal "fringe" books later omitted from the canon proper. They are: the Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Epistle of Clement. Their eventual exclusion was not because they were regarded as heretical, but because they either lacked apostolic authorship or were thought to be too shallow in spiritual content. Athanasius, in his Easter Letter of AD367, set out his list of books which were to be regarded as Scripture. His is the earliest extant list which corresponds with the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. In addition, he states that the Didache and the Shepherd, while not to be regarded on this level, were still worthy of study by catechumens. The respect Athanasius commanded was such that his list was accepted in Rome in AD383, and adopted by the Council of Carthage in AD397. The Council of Hippo in AD393 was more concerned with the status of the Old Testament Apocrypha, and appears not to have discussed the canon of the New Testament at any length. The Athanasian canon thus came to be gradually accepted throughout the church. M. R. James, of ghost story fame, published a translation of all the significant post-apostolic writings in 1924, which is still in print (The Apocryphal New Testament, Oxford University Press).
https://www.theguardian.com/notesan...se we can identify,and the Epistle of Clement.
 

TheLearner

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The Didache (full text) is an early Christian document giving advice on various "practical matters" such as how to baptize, when to fast, how to celebrate the Lord's Supper, etc. It's hard to date, but generally scholars think it was contemporary with at least parts of the NT. And it claimed apostolic authority.

Although the Didache enjoyed high status in the second-century church, the document ultimately did not make the Canon of the New Testament. There doesn't seem to be a documented reason for the exclusion in the writings of the Church Fathers, so I imagine it is mostly speculation on what caused its decline in popularity and ultimate failure to make the canon. Nonetheless, what reasons have scholars cited as possible reasons for its exclusion?


https://christianity.stackexchange....posed-for-the-rejection-of-the-didache-from-t
 

TheLearner

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