FAITH ALONE: Paul Agrees With James.

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#21
They are one ! or did you not know this too.
An individual cannot fulfill the will of God. The only time when the 2 exist together is as we walk in the Spirit, and that isn't us, but Christ living His life through us. This is His endeavor and not ours. We need to be like Paul in Philippians 3:9...And be found in Him, having no righteousness of my own, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:..
You seem to want to come to righteousness through the law and in your own endeavor.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
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#22
Is this what you truly believe is the righteousness of the saints? Is it not the perfectly lived life of Christ imputed to us?

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but we would never be justified were it not for the perfect life of Christ making us right with God. We, in the flesh, will never actually do God's will completely and continually. And continually striving to keep the commandments was the error of the Pharisees. They, too, thought justification came through the law. The righteousness that exceeds their righteousness is the righteousness of Christ, and this requires no righteousness of our own. I implore you with all haste to prayerfully consider what I shared.
Brother eventually maturity leads here

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but until we come to that part of the doctrine it’s really really hard to hear. Jesus I parts righteousness through hearing and believing the gospel this kind of thing if accepted and believed leads to righteousness

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

did you ever notice in Paul’s letters they are structured similarly he always concludes making something very clear that e actions of the believer are absolutely part of this equation

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see how if I now say “ what I do doesn’t matter Jesus lives a perfect life and it’s impites to me now “ then I’m totally rejecting what Paul’s trying to teach about repentance and our deeds and how they will disqualify us if we don’t repent ? How Paul’s teaching then about what they need to stop doing and what they need to lean into

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:

Your right without Jesus no one can be saved like if we reject what he said about being saved that would leave us without salvstion there’s a lot Jesus taught believers about salvstion and most of it teaches us how to believe and act and live things we’re supposed to hear believe and walk in and it’s not irrelevant and both don’t lead to the same place

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,( can serve sin and die )

or of obedience unto righteousness?”( can repent and obey and live )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬

Life and death is before every man by the gospel sent to them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He explained what the works of the flesh are it’s what we know as sinful ideas and actions and attitudes


the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like

we can’t be yielding to sin anymore we have to submit to God instead

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ( that’s our role )

Draw nigh to God, ( our place ) and he will draw nigh to you. ( his place ) Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”( herring and believing the gospel fixes the double mind part of we don’t reject it and embrace other things )
‭‭James‬ ‭4:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when a person dies they can either die in thier sins or they can die having repentance and remission of thier sins if we don’t repent and start acting right as people in general we’re going to perish

man has a role and duty in the earth it’s why we were made Jesus didn’t do what he did so we can reject his doctrine but so we could come into it and be saved believing
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
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#24
The will of the Father is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That all may believe on Him
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,221
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#25
Brother eventually maturity leads here

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but until we come to that part of the doctrine it’s really really hard to hear. Jesus I parts righteousness through hearing and believing the gospel this kind of thing if accepted and believed leads to righteousness

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

did you ever notice in Paul’s letters they are structured similarly he always concludes making something very clear that e actions of the believer are absolutely part of this equation

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see how if I now say “ what I do doesn’t matter Jesus lives a perfect life and it’s impites to me now “ then I’m totally rejecting what Paul’s trying to teach about repentance and our deeds and how they will disqualify us if we don’t repent ? How Paul’s teaching then about what they need to stop doing and what they need to lean into

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:

Your right without Jesus no one can be saved like if we reject what he said about being saved that would leave us without salvstion there’s a lot Jesus taught believers about salvstion and most of it teaches us how to believe and act and live things we’re supposed to hear believe and walk in and it’s not irrelevant and both don’t lead to the same place

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,( can serve sin and die )

or of obedience unto righteousness?”( can repent and obey and live )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬

Life and death is before every man by the gospel sent to them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He explained what the works of the flesh are it’s what we know as sinful ideas and actions and attitudes


the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like

we can’t be yielding to sin anymore we have to submit to God instead

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. ( that’s our role )

Draw nigh to God, ( our place ) and he will draw nigh to you. ( his place ) Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”( herring and believing the gospel fixes the double mind part of we don’t reject it and embrace other things )
‭‭James‬ ‭4:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when a person dies they can either die in thier sins or they can die having repentance and remission of thier sins if we don’t repent and start acting right as people in general we’re going to perish

man has a role and duty in the earth it’s why we were made Jesus didn’t do what he did so we can reject his doctrine but so we could come into it and be saved believing
My point is twofold:
1. There is no righteousness apart from Christ's righteousness that will help us. He alone performed and is even capable of fulfilling the righteousness demanded by the law.
2. Even in our sanctification, while the law can teach us what righteousness is, it offers no hope or help in our actual performance of righteousness. We are still unrighteousness in our actions apart from Christ.

This is, in my opinion, why it is still largely difficult to tell Christians and non-Christians apart at times. So much of the Christian's life is spent in self endeavor trying to keep commandments that aren't actually being kept. If they actually walked in the Spirit, they would be living in perfect righteousness and the fruit of the Spirit would be readily on display.
People occasionally say nice things about me; that I am able to suffer long with people even when treated indifferently or poorly. But I can't live that way in myself. God hasn't given me some superpower. I've just learned to live submitted to God and to walk in Him. It is literally Christ living in me. It surprises me sometimes. And it is an easy yoke. I have more joy in preferring others than in myself. But what I have come to know and experience concerning walking in the Spirit is available to any Christian. But they will never come to it by trying to be obedient. They will only come to it by walking in the Spirit and having Christ live in and through them.
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
687
312
63
#26
An individual cannot fulfill the will of God. The only time when the 2 exist together is as we walk in the Spirit, and that isn't us, but Christ living His life through us. This is His endeavor and not ours. We need to be like Paul in Philippians 3:9...And be found in Him, having no righteousness of my own, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:..
You seem to want to come to righteousness through the law and in your own endeavor.
I never said fulfill
The will of the Father is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That all may believe on Him
What does it mean to believe what are the requirements? you know the verse;
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 (KJV)
Do you think they are saved for believing?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#28
I never said fulfill

What does it mean to believe what are the requirements? you know the verse;
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 (KJV)
Do you think they are saved for believing?
To not fulfill any particular commandment is to sin. If every requirement both inwardly and outwardly aren't kept, one has failed to obey it.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
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New Zealand
#29
I never said fulfill

What does it mean to believe what are the requirements? you know the verse;
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 (KJV)
Do you think they are saved for believing?
Of course not.. Devil's don't and can't entrust their salvation with Jesus Christ!
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#30
The people whose 'by their fruits you shall know them' in this passage, by context, are false prophets! The passage is about identifying false prophets. Not Christians in general.

Where did you get that from? Knowing a person by their fruit is a great indicator of whether they belong to God or not. When a person is truly saved, God gives them His Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who causes a saved person to become more Christ-like: become more holy and pure in heart and mind, obeying God and resisting sin. An ungodly person who doesn't have the Holy Spirit can't put up a pretense of holiness for very long. That's why we are all to watch the kind of fruit a person has.


🍸
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#31
Where did you get that from? Knowing a person by their fruit is a great indicator of whether they belong to God or not. When a person is truly saved, God gives them His Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who causes a saved person to become more Christ-like: become more holy and pure in heart and mind, obeying God and resisting sin. An ungodly person who doesn't have the Holy Spirit can't put up a pretense of holiness for very long. That's why we are all to watch the kind of fruit a person has.


🍸
The passage itself:

(Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Mat 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(Mat 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 
Feb 28, 2020
34
14
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#32
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, ( preach the gospel to every creature ) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, ( you must repent ) we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”( and follow me )
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ( Jesus taught in the gospel he would return some day)

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works( that’s the goal of Gods grace and how we are saved). These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the problem is when we remove Gods word from salvetion it removes faith and we’re left with this type of grace because his words are removed

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

people define grace according to men’s dictionaries so it seems conditionless grace through faith requires us to hear and believe what he actually said that’s the source of faith

So repenting from sin and acting in the right things Jesus taught us is just a part of faith maturing and rooting and beginning to grow but without accepting the gospel none of it can even form within us

If we listen to what Jesus was actually preaching we’re going to hear Gods word and begin to allow faith to root and grow
Or as I like to say without the word of god , you just have a made up god.
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
687
312
63
#33
To not fulfill any particular commandment is to sin. If every requirement both inwardly and outwardly aren't kept, one has failed to obey it.
I am sorry i do not want to be coy with you but you dont know what you are talking about. lets leave at that.
 
Feb 28, 2020
34
14
8
#34
The passage itself:

(Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Mat 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(Mat 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." James 3:17

The faith in God is evident in works that produce GOOD fruits too. One should be able to recognize good works producing the good fruits. There is truly a very long list of them. Starting with examples like charity, repentance, baptism, mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; etc all producing good fruit too. The verse in Matt 7 20 is direct at evil works but we also know all their fruits too.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,119
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#36
The passage itself:

(Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Mat 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(Mat 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
???

I bolded and highlighted a certain section in purple what you posted above - that section talks about good people who bears good fruit. How can you say that the passage you posted only talks about how to discern false prophets? Watching everyone's fruit also reveals who bears good fruit, not just bad.


🍸
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,119
113
#37
To not fulfill any particular commandment is to sin. If every requirement both inwardly and outwardly aren't kept, one has failed to obey it.

But we're saved by grace right? It means that our sins - our failures are forgiven right? All of them. That's what allows a Christian to get back up on the horse and continue to go on in Christ. Because our salvation in Christ is no longer about being in and out salvation because of sin. The Lord Jesus already took care of that part. That frees us to go on in Him and let Him continue to grow us up in Christ-likeness. it WILL result in a pure heart and obedience to the Lord. It WILL result in godly works. The works won't save us, but they are the result of God's work in us if we are truly saved.

This forum is so strange. It's shocking to see people discourage obedience to the Lord. It's actually the natural result of salvation.


🍸
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,221
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#38
But we're saved by grace right? It means that our sins - our failures are forgiven right? All of them. That's what allows a Christian to get back up on the horse and continue to go on in Christ. Because our salvation in Christ is no longer about being in and out salvation because of sin. The Lord Jesus already took care of that part. That frees us to go on in Him and let Him continue to grow us up in Christ-likeness. it WILL result in a pure heart and obedience to the Lord. It WILL result in godly works. The works won't save us, but they are the result of God's work in us if we are truly saved.

This forum is so strange. It's shocking to see people discourage obedience to the Lord. It's actually the natural result of salvation.


🍸
I'm not discouraging obedience. Just the opposite. Anyone who believes they are obeying the law by trying to keep the commandments in their own strength falls short of obedience. That's why Christ came in the first place. Simply because we are saved we don't suddenly become able to keep commandments. It is only as we walk in the Spirit that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. So encouraging people to try their best is dooming them to failure. Teaching people to live under the yoke of Christ releases burden and provides rest. Teaching people to delight in the Lord is what leads to having the desires of our hearts given. Not our present desires, but pure and holy desires are placed in our hearts. Teaching people how to humble themselves and actually get into the presence of God where we are changed from glory to glory is where we are conformed to the image of Christ. Learning how to work out our salvation in fear and trembling knowing that it is God who is willing and doing His good pleasure.
Far from encouraging disobedience, I'm trying to share with people what it is to have a real and vital relationship with God where real change is occurring in them and the power of God is resting upon them, and not some self discipline that outwardly conforms to the law but has no inward reality.
There truly exists a phenomenal life with God hidden in Christ to be had. A life that finds its satisfaction in the good Shepherd and does not want. A life where God is our reward and He that is all desirable becomes all desired by us and we are fully satisfied in Him. But it isn't found in pursuit of obedience; it is found in pursuit of Him.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#39
???

I bolded and highlighted a certain section in purple what you posted above - that section talks about good people who bears good fruit. How can you say that the passage you posted only talks about how to discern false prophets? Watching everyone's fruit also reveals who bears good fruit, not just bad.


🍸
Well... the fruits can be hard to tell. They obviously do happen, but not every saved person goes on to maturity.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#40
Amen

The truth that liberates.
Few find it.
Yeah.. imputed righteousness happens in an instant when the person believes on Jesus Christ..with the Holy Spirit sealing the person believing.

Since they have the Holy Spirit now.. then they are going to be quickened to do good for Him. This doesn't mean that they WILL do good works.. and if not they were never saved in the first place! Because that is the line that I keep hearing.

Anyway.. the book of John compared with Romans 10, compared with James 2 and Acts 2.. and there you go :)