=mailmandan;3581407]
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation,
and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Isn't this the same promise He gave to everyone? "Obey Me, trust in me, Listen and
Do what I say, And I will Bless thee beyond your wildest dreams.
How can you preach that Abraham didn't have this promise from the very beginning?
It wasn't until Abram listened and obeyed that God tested his Faith regarding his son. No amount of wrangling can change this Biblical Fact MMD. As the Word which became Flesh said, that you refused to even acknowledge;
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
These are "WORKS" that show we have Faith, that show
our choice to "deny our self" and follow Him and
His instructions, not the religious traditions of man.
Typical long winded post from you, full of scripture twisting and propaganda.
Your twisted implication here seems to be that only YOU have denied yourself and follow Him and His instructions perfectly and will qualify for heaven under those terms, while the rest of us will be disqualified for heaven because we follow religious traditions of man. This is the same old straw man argument that you continue to try and sell, but I'm not buying it and neither are any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat.
How can Abraham be righteous at 75 years of living outside of God's instructions? He couldn't be righteous, he had sin all over him. So for him to become righteous, something had to be done with his sin.
Did he take a goat to the nearest Levite Priest as was commanded by Moses? No!! That "law" was not given until 430 years later. Levi wasn't even born yet. So how was his sin forgiven? Was it not by Grace "Through his Faith"?
Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 explain how Abraham became righteous. It was because he
BELIEVED IN THE LORD/BELIEVED GOD and its was
accounted to him for righteousness.
Are the demons forgiven? They "believe"!!! No, they believe but they don't have Faith. Faith "REQUIRES" action, belief does not. Abraham didn't just believe, he obeyed. This action changed his belief to Faith, which is necessary for Grace.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they
do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they
do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31)
and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Action does not change belief into faith and action does not establish faith. More works-salvation confusion! The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19 or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, then you are trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
Yes, the catholic have created their own "works" for salvation just like the Pharisees did as Jesus said.
Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with
their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God
by your tradition?
Christmas, Sunday Worship, Lent, Halloween, Good Friday, Long haired images of God, all the Work's of the Catholic church and her many, many daughters.
You are right to expose them as not coming from the Word which became Flesh.
It is very deceptive how you mixed the religious traditions of the Catholics along with the commandments of God. Very tricky and deceptive MMD.
It's your "religious traditions" sales pitch and judaizing doctrine that is very tricky and deceptive. Just because the Pharisees added their own traditions to the law does not mean born again Christians do.
Abraham didn't continue in the religious traditions of his fathers, he was told to leave them. He did, however, obey God's instructions without creating his own.
God said Abraham was blessed "BECAUSE" He honored Him with obedience. This obedience was called FAITH in Heb. 11.
Blessed is one thing and accounted as righteous is another. You continue to define faith "as" obedience/works, just as ALL works-salvationists do, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's. *This is the very HEART of your ERROR!
Hebrews 11:1 - Now
faith is the
assurance of things hoped for, the
conviction of things not seen. *Nothing there about faith is multiple acts of obedience/works. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and acts of obedience/works which follow are the fruit.
I have noticed that only those religious people who traditions cause them to transgress God's Commandments, argue with what seems like such a simple and Biblical truth about Abraham.
I have noticed that works-salvationists accuse others of transgressing God's Commandments and imply they will be saved based on the merits of obeying God's Commandments and misunderstand the simple Biblical truth about Abraham (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-6).
It is the Bible that teaches Faith without works is dead. I know you can't accept this. I wish you could.
I can accept it. As I have already explained numerous times, in James 2:20,
"faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
*Remember that James is discussing the
evidence of faith (
says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18),
not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
First you said Abraham was saved without any works. Which the Bible exposes as not accurate. Now you claim His Works of obedience from the very beginning don't count because God hadn't promised him anything yet. Well, as you can see, the Bible also shows this as not accurate.
I said that Abraham was "accounted as righteous" based on his faith and not his works, as we clearly read in Romans 4:2-3.
I'm not a Catholic, nor am I a partaker of the many religious franchises she spawned, Baptist, AOG, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and on and on. I believe that any religious organization that "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious traditions" are no different than the Pharisees, who also claimed to be Children of Abraham.
You can criticize and condemn these people all you like, but you are no better than any of these people with your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." You seem to enjoy labeling everyone else as transgressing the Commandments of God and claiming for yourself to have obeyed the Commandments of God and will qualify for heaven under those terms.
You have a serious PRIDE issue!
Abraham wasn't justified by the Justification Laws given by Moses to the Levites 430 years after Abraham. He was justified by Faith. The Bible says Faith without "works" is dead. Abraham didn't just have any old religious works of the religions of the land. He left them, denied himself, took up his cross and "followed" the Word which became Flesh. He wasn't justified by "Works" of a Law "ADDED" 430 years later. He wasn't a "hearer" of God's Instructions but a "doer" of God's instructions. And it was this "action" that caused God to bless his Seed.
Difference in style from others you condemn, but same in substance. WORKS BASED FALSE GOSPEL. Learn the difference between faith and works, blessings received based on obedience and salvation through faith.
It's in your Bible, all you have to do is "believe it".
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
This is the same verse that works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) quote in their quest to try and prove that salvation is by works. 3 For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed. This was many years AFTER Abraham
believed in the Lord/believed God and
his faith (not his works) was
accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).
You have to preach this MMD. You have to separate obedience from Faith, not because of the Bibles teaching, but because of your religious traditions.
I have no religious traditions and there is a distinction between faith and works of obedience which "follow" and are produced "out of" faith. The Bible clearly makes a distinction between faith AND works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; James 2:14 etc..). You have to make no distinction whatsoever between faith and obedience/works, not because of the Bibles teaching, but because of your perverted gospel. You are not fooling me.
Abraham Followed God's instructions and it was called faith.
Abraham believed God and it was called faith. Abraham followed God's instructions and it was called obedience/works.
He believed in God, but so do demons disguised as ministers of righteousness. What separated Abraham from the demons was his obedience to God, not religious man'. What separated Jesus from the others who were murdered on the same day was obedience to God, not religious man.
He believed in God, trusted in God. The demons merely believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they
do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation and neither do works-salvationists.
The common denominator in EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE OF FAITH ever shown in the Bible, was obedience to God, not man.
Obedience is the demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not an example of faith no matter how much so called obedience that someone attempts to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on the merit of works/law keeping etc..
No amount of ignoring, omitting, twisting, scripture can change this Biblical Fact. Nothing Paul says preaches against this. Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Another example of how works-salvationists twist the scriptures and confuse faith with obedience/works. Romans 10:16 is another example as well. But they have not all
obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has
believed our report?” Campbellites use this verse to erroneously teach that we obey the gospel by receiving water baptism. Yet we
obey the gospel by
choosing to believe the gospel.
20 But
shewed first unto them of Damascus,
and at Jerusalem,
and throughout all the coasts of Judaea,
and then to
the Gentiles,
that they should repent and turn to God, and
do works meet for repentance.
Doing works meet for repentance is the
fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Works-salvationists confuse the fruit of repentance/faith with the essence of repentance/faith, as you have just demonstrated. Your true colors are really showing now!
Rejecting God's Commandments to serve religious traditions of man are not "Works" worthy of repentance. We should strive to have "The Faith of Abraham", not just hear them.
This is your continued straw man argument. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is neither works worthy of repentance or the faith of Abraham. It sounds to me like you are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).