Faith Without Works is Dead (continuation)

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Is "faith w/o works is dead" from God's perspective or man's (in James / Jacob 2 context)?

  • From God's perspective

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • From man's perspective

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • I do not know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Both

    Votes: 5 71.4%

  • Total voters
    7
Dec 9, 2011
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#21
That is true to me. To confess belief in words takes no faith for me. It should be the same for the thief. So you have in English the saying "Easier said than done."
Matthew 15:7-8
7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:
Isaiah 29:13 actually says

In order to COME to God, you have to FOLLOW Christ, yes? What did Jesus say about that?

Mark 10:20-21​
20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.”
21Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.f”​
( f BYZ and TR Then come, take up the cross, and follow Me.  ) (Also Mark 8:34)​

Isn't "give to the poor" work in your eyes?
GOD didn’t need to see him do good physical works but those good works would prove to men that his faith Is true so I believe GOD was helping him from a mans perspective.

Love GOD and love your neighbor.

yes,GOD does a work In a person First then,they have a Desire to do good works ,thats what James was talking about and these good works will be rewarded at the judgement seat of CHRIST.

James 2:16-19
King James Version

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 
Feb 26, 2021
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#22
Noah would have been dead if he thought faith means never having to obey what God told us will save us

Noah was saved by faith because he believed Gods warning about the coming flood

the building of the ark was the result of his belief.
That is very true, but some may use the below as defense to their opinion, and I was trying to untangle the confusion. (To explain that to work is to do the will of the Father.)

This Is why I believe that faith without works Is NOT dead to GOD because GOD looks at the heart but man looks at outward appearances.Faith without works IS dead to men though.
IMO faith In the old testament was demonstrated by works of course
One who does not do the will of the Father is not worthy of entering His kingdom. They at worst will be snared by a trap like a hare and perish. Noah's example proves this.
 
Feb 26, 2021
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#23
GOD didn’t need to see him do good physical works but those good works would prove to men that his faith Is true
Hmm... So what will happen if a servant does not follow:

Matthew 28:19​
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 4:38​
These commandments?

Do you say these are not works that will lead to eternal life??
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#24
Hmm... So what will happen if a servant does not follow:

Matthew 28:19​
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 4:38​
These commandments?

Do you say these are not works that will lead to eternal life??
I would say those works do NOT lead to eternal life but a person WILL do those good works If GOD has first did a work In them.

Love GOD first And then you will love your neighbor.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#26
I would say those works do NOT lead to eternal life but a person WILL do those good works If GOD has first did a work In them.

Love GOD first And then you will love your neighbor.
So what happen if that person does not do "those good works" after believing God?

Is he still saved in your view?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#27
That is very true, but some may use the below as defense to their opinion, and I was trying to untangle the confusion. (To explain that to work is to do the will of the Father.)
One who does not do the will of the Father is not worthy of entering His kingdom. They at worst will be snared by a trap like a hare and perish. Noah's example proves this.
The idea that Paul was talking about justification before God/vertical justification, while James was talking about justification before Man/horizontal justification, is a very popular doctrine held by many people who believed that Paul and James must agree with each other.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#28
I've been spending considerable time meditating and studying this topic, and while I don't pretend to have a perfect grasp of it maybe this will edify someone...

----

So what is faith? Well, we're told that...


Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



So faith is:

1) Substance - and if we take the biblical definition of substance, it means "riches, resources, wealth"

2) Evidence - proof; testimony...like a receipt


Wealth and receipt...these are terms we often use in the world of finance when making purchases. So faith can be understood as the resources of the things one hopes for and the receipt or "proof of purchase" of things not yet seen. The writer of Hebrews is explaining the economy of the heavenly kingdom; not only what faith is but how even the Almighty uses faith to manifest His creation.

But these aren't the only elements to pay attention to in this economy. Just like money and receipts aren't the only elements involved in a basic transaction, there's also the ACT of purchase that charges one's account and makes the transaction. Trans-Action.

Say you wanted a chair for your home, and the chair costs $500. Let's say you have $1000 in your bank account. Clearly, you have enough "substance" for the thing you hope for...but if you never perform the required ACT of purchase (whether that's clicking the buy button on a website or physically visiting the store) it doesn't matter how much substance you have you will never receive the chair you hope for. A trans-action must be completed.

If faith is wealth used to receive the things one hopes for in the heavenly, then there must be a corresponding action tied across every instance of faith, else - just like money stashed in an old mattress - it's worthless. Elijah laid on a boy to resurrect him after prayer...but did he need to? Elisha, to heal the poisoned waters, placed a stick into it. Was there anything special about the stick? Peter stepped out of the boat to walk to the Messiah on the water and only started to sink when he doubted his action.

Since heaven supersedes the earth in authority, heaven's economy supersedes the earth's economy. This means while laws are fixed when operating in this world, those laws must always submit to heaven when a transaction of faith is made. Thus...


Luke 17:6 [brackets mine]
"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say [i.e. the ACT] to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.


Ok, so how is faith also the receipt or "proof of purchase" of things not yet seen? Well if we consider our example purchase of the chair, we intuitively understand that when we purchase something tangible online we have a waiting period until it's delivered (and this waiting period is different for each item). And so immediately after purchase, we receive a receipt by email confirming our purchase and right to the item. It's as good as ours, and only a matter of time before we receive when we expect.

It would seem rather silly to purchase something online, receive a receipt for it, only to say "I'm not sure I'll ever get it." In fact, we're so confident it's on its way that if the item doesn't arrive precisely when expected we demand an explanation from the store. We've also most likely performed the act of making room in our home for the new chair. So there is no doubt in our mind that we'll receive what we bought until we're told otherwise because we have proof of purchase. Likewise, our faith in something - when directly tied to a related action - is proof that what we believe in "is" or "will be".

This is why we end all prayers with "Amen", meaning "so be it". It's the stamp of faith that whatever we ask for in the Messiah's name will be given so that the Father may be glorified. So then we ask in prayer, and then we act as if it's already ours...and there's our proof we'll get it. But if we don't act appropriately, then there's no proof we've exercised our faith.
 
Feb 26, 2021
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#29

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#31
More BALONEY from someone who should be learning rather than trying to teach.
Trying to force James to fit romans has always been baloney. Trying to make it fit completely changes what it ACTUALLY says . Its no wonder the cults use James against us . They also get wrong who James is writing too ,but they do take what it says literally. They get it half right .
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#32
Dec 9, 2011
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#33

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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#36
This thread is particularly for the ongoing discussion between me and @seed_time_harvest bcs of his request.

But anyone is welcome to post here if they want to have a say.
Faith without works is dead and works without faith are dead works. Without faith it is impossible to please God, so you can do good works as a non-believer, but they don't make you pleasing to God. Our best works are filthy rags. Only the work of Christ and works that are sanctified by Him are acceptable to God.