FALLING FROM GRACE; WHAT IT MEANS AND HOW YOU FALL

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth

Teachings of Joseph Prince....
source....Joseph Prince exposed, false teachings of Joseph Prince

I guess that's why "rebellious sinners" like yourself love his teachings and say they are "right on!" ROFL!!!

In his own words.

ISIT just admitted, or professed one of these two standards..

1. He is perfect. (without sin)
2. His sin is so insignificant, it really does not matter to a holy and righteous God, God loves him anyway. That his sin (although classified by God as rebellion) somehow falls short of the rebellious stage.

smh

There is absolutely no other way to interpret this.

That is just a way to disparage what others have said about the true gospel. They resort to this behavior when the word of God has been shown to make them wrong. It's to be expected and ignored too as we are well-versed in these types of tactics. All is well...

 

[ladylynn]

I think it off because God's wisdom,is often thought as foolishness by men.

Yes it is a sin and falling from grace to be prideful enough to think your works or actions makes God owe you anything.

However it is a lie that God promises you praise for your wisdom before men or success in everything you do if you measure it before men.

Hi Ariel2., What happens is when we seek Jesus, He becomes our wisdom., we already saw where our so called wisdom gets us. If we are looking for success in a matter of our lives., like for instance raising our children, Jesus gives us better than just success, He gives us "good success" He will give the kind of wisdom that understands kids and won't cause our kids to be frustrated by our stupidity.

The same with our finances. If we are worldly wise with our finances we can make smart choices and out do the next guy and have a "worldly success" of sorts. But then we have to maintain our own success and it is a major burden to our bodies. Causing many to have stress and heart issues and health issues.

Just like anything we try to do without Jesus becomes a heavy burden. But when we give our burdens to the Lord He makes them easy. That is a promise from the Bible. Taking His promises literally is what we should do. And our lives will literally take on major change.

It's about not having our own ideas in life but being changed to have His. There is a way that seems right to a man...but the ways there of are the ways of death. And let me add, ultimate failure if not death. I don't want 'my' ideas or my thoughts anymore. They are so flawed by what I was taught as a learned along the way how to survive on my own.

In the matter of it being a lie that "God promises you praise for your wisdom before men or success in everything you do if you measure it before men" Being wise before men doesn't mean they will praise you. On the contrary they will hate you but you will be able to walk among men in wisdom and have God's favor regardless. We will have tribulation in this world but Jesus promised He has over come the world. We want the favor of God not men.

As far as success in everything we do. When we acknowledge Jesus, His promise is He shall direct our paths. I believe that don't you? And since Jesus is directing our path we will always have good success.
I have found Him to be 100% true to His word.

We step out in faith and believe that He will take care of us and He will. The only way I was first able to step out is when I first believed He loved me by His unfailing love and grace. I deserve none of it but get all of it. That is grace. That is the gift Jesus died to give us., unearned love, unearned favor., unearned payment for our sin. He took the punishment and wrath of God against sin upon Himself and now we get to walk in newness of life. One step at a time.

 

[Ariel82]

LadyLynn, I find no disagreement with your words, but I do not know if that is what Joseph Prince means when he spoke his....However since he is not here to clarify, we can leave it at that.

 

[valiant]

gal 5 can be translated, 'Christ has become of no effect for you (for the present) --- you have made grace of no effect'. See Rom 9.6 where the same word is translated 'of no effect'. Both cases can been as referring to the word of God.

 

[ladylynn]

The problem with many in the so called "church" and even many in here is the standard of what is considered "good" and what is considered "evil"

Humans tend to protect self, it is our nature. so we water down Gods perfect standard. The pharisee did it, The religious do it, It is the mainstream.

The sad part is it sounds good. They come screaming we love sin, because we reject their righteousness, And attempt to follow Gods righteousness. They say they are the ones who love God because they work so hard to do his will. When in reality, they reject his will, because they attempt to replace Gods righteousness (perfection) with their own (fallen short of the glory of God) and claim it is what God wants.. And anyone who does not follow right along with them are evil false teachers who love sin.

Until a person realises, It is God's standard we must attain to if we want to be righteous (of our own power and work) to be acceptable to God.. they will not repent, and seek out Gods righteous gift of his son, and the cross..

Being a new creation in Christ means having a new mind and heart. We are learning about the awesome gift of what our salvation means each day we learn about Christ. What He is, we are now. How many Christians are willing to "re-learn" how to live and move and have their being changed? We are so used to surviving in this world on our own. How odd it is to give up our ways and take on something so new as to love an enemy and put down our own defenses? How do we do that?! Won't we just be swallowed up?!

We do it with a new heart. We can't do it with the way we used to love people. We loved those who loved us. Now we are seeing how Jesus loves us when we didn't even care about Him. I know for myself I used to say to the Lord., "how can I love that rotten person, they hate my guts and want me to fail and seek my hurt? They want me humiliated and shamed. How can You expect me to love them!!!"

But then I have been privy to seeing how awful my habits are and how my first reaction has been and still is at times to a mean person or a rotten situation. I am still in so many ways 'reacting' like an unsaved person. But the Lord is telling me each day "and such WERE some of you, but I have better things of you now"

That is how grace teaches us. He is our example and we follow Him. We are now the sheep of His pasture and when we trust Him enough to put aside our own ideas of which pasture is better and trust His leading instead., we find His are the BEST and the greenest and the lushest and the water is the clearest and freshest.

God's standard is the best and those who don't know His standard will be struggling in life. It's hard to get as angry at people the way I used to. I can read how angry they are and how full of fight they are. As if they are defending God and not vs/vs. (And such were some of you). I keep seeing myself fighting the word game too when I came to CC and engaged ideas with others for the first time.

It can be a very fleshhhhy thing to post on these threads. I often catch myself typing and then canceling.

 

[ladylynn]

I've been in churches where people say "boy,pastor can make us squirm" and they love it. The problem I see is that nailing people over sin,and I mean relentlessly,produces despair. They are forever working past aquired condemnation.

Swing pendulum the other way.

Lets never examine ourselves,or repent,cause God will be offended at the affront to the finished work. That outcome never gets their heart plowed by the Holy Spirit.

I like prince. His ministry appears to me to be encouragement,revelatory teaching,and kingdom building.

Falling from grace is like a neglected house. Run down,no maintenance,or a frog slowly boiled in water.

Has to do with sin,neglect,and walking carnally.

Well, I see it also that there are many people who are not neglecting or walking "carnally" at all. They are trying so hard to "do" all they can to be pleasing to God that they slowly begin to treat salvation like they do other things in life. Work hard, maintain your salvation., keep God happy., be good...be VERY good and God will be VERY happy. Soon grace slips from their minds and they deal in law...you work for it and you then and only then get it.


NOTE; ONLY JESUS KEEPS GOD HAPPY. ONLY JESUS RIGHTEOUSNESS KEEPS GOD HAPPY. ONLY WHEN WE RECON and FACTOR THAT TRUTH INTO OUR LIVES IS GOD PLEASED.



That is why falling from grace is so rampant in the church. We are all taught to sacrifice, work and 'burn OUT for Jeeeesus" When Jesus is telling us His yoke is EASY and His burden is LIGHT not heavy.

But our religious zeal has taken us right off the cliff and we fall from the grace we first had at the time of our salvation.

(We need to be sustained by grace through faith as well as saved by grace through faith.)

I knew when I got saved it was all Jesus and was sooooooooooooooooo thankful and I remember my own experience at first hearing the Gospel. I was crying and so thankful that I didn't have to be a good Catholic anymore. No more statues to pray to., no more confessions to the priest., no more fear of dying without the priest coming to give me last rights!! I'M FORGIVEN!!!! NO MORE FEAR OF GOD BECAUSE GOD REALLY LOVES ME!!!!! WOW!!!!! HE REALLY LOVES MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! But then I got into a religious legalistic church that at first sounded totally reasonable. You need to love God., you need to show God you love Him by doing for Him. Jesus did all this for you now you need to do for HIM.

Soon it became works to maintain my relationship with Jesus. I felt that if I stopped doing He would stop loving me and God became like everyone else. When in fact., the devil lied to me like he lied to Adam and Eve. God loves me IN Christ and I don't have to earn His love. I don't have to work my will and maneuver situations in life to get what I want. Jesus has already secured God's love for me and the promises. Now I only need to see Jesus.

 

[eph610]

Grace is unmerited favor....you can't fall in and out of it. Its not a state of being.

It is when God moves in the life of a sinner, touches their heart and gives them enough faith to believe the gospel of what Christ has done for us upon the cross.

We don't add to our grace, we add to our faith....

Still trying to understand how anyone can "fall from grace".

Grace is much more than simply unmerited favor, it is also a Spirit[Heb 10.29] and and a teacher[Titus 2.11-15].

Grace flows from submission to the Holy Spirit and enables you to do in your Spirit what you cannot do in your flesh.

The Bible teaches us that you cannot be a sinner saved by grace, you are one or the other, but not both.

As a saint, you will still miss the mark at times, because Grace does not make on perfect, as some here are trying to state.
Grace also forces you to confess when you do miss it at those times.

For those that say I do not need to confess when I miss the mark as a son or daughter of God, because all past, present, future sins were nailed on the cross, that is not at all what the Bible teaches. Your past, present, future sins were nailed on the cross, but you still must admit and confess when you miss the mark.

 

[eph610]

The problem with many in the so called "church" and even many in here is the standard of what is considered "good" and what is considered "evil"

Humans tend to protect self, it is our nature. so we water down Gods perfect standard. The pharisee did it, The religious do it, It is the mainstream.

The sad part is it sounds good. They come screaming we love sin, because we reject their righteousness, And attempt to follow Gods righteousness. They say they are the ones who love God because they work so hard to do his will. When in reality, they reject his will, because they attempt to replace Gods righteousness (perfection) with their own (fallen short of the glory of God) and claim it is what God wants.. And anyone who does not follow right along with them are evil false teachers who love sin.

Until a person realises, It is God's standard we must attain to if we want to be righteous (of our own power and work) to be acceptable to God.. they will not repent, and seek out Gods righteous gift of his son, and the cross..

Please clarify this last statement for me:

Until a person realises, It is God's standard we must attain to if we want to be righteous (of our own power and work) to be acceptable to God.. they will not repent, and seek out Gods righteous gift of his son, and the cross..

How do we attain God's perfect standard?

 

[eph610]

Sinner is someone who sins....even those who are under grace are told to avoid sin. That doesn't mean they are under the law. That means they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and are not condemned to death or "fall out of grace" by their actions. However God chastens those He loves.

If God isn't convicting your heart when you sin or disobey Him, then you should examine to see if you are truly His adopted child or just a slave to sin. (generic you, not you specifically zmouth)

Actually the term SINNER is a condition and not an action.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Actually the term SINNER is a condition and not an action.

It's an identity. Just as "saint" is.

 

[ladylynn]

Sinner is someone who sins....even those who are under grace are told to avoid sin. That doesn't mean they are under the law. That means they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and are not condemned to death or "fall out of grace" by their actions. However God chastens those He loves.

If God isn't convicting your heart when you sin or disobey Him, then you should examine to see if you are truly His adopted child or just a slave to sin. (generic you, not you specifically zmouth)

This is something else I agree with JP about. The Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin, but of righteousness. The enemy is the accuser of the brethren. We as believers are in need of being reminded of our standing in Christ. I was taught from day one that the Holy Spirit will cause me to feel horrible. To feel guilt and judgement. So, when I was being accused by the enemy, I could not tell the difference.

Now I know the difference. Jesus took all my sin and all my guilt and all my shame. The Holy Spirit will be instead telling me I think better things of you. You are not acting according to who you are IN Christ. You are in dangerous ground. He warns me He does not condemn me or take me behind the woodshed as I've heard so many good believers say.

I take myself behind to the woodshed. I cause my own folly when I act foolish. When I decide to act independently of Him, I am like that stupid sheep wandering away from the Good Shepherd and gets caught in the thicket or worse yet, the wolves can come and eat me up or injure me very badly. But that is not God's hand wacking me or spanking me. This is such a wrong concept humans have given to the Holy Spirit.

Discipline is about teaching and we learn through reading the Word of God. If we are not reading the Word of God or hearing it we are being frustrated by our own lack of being blessed. We walk out of the perimeters of His blessings. Why would we want to do that??? What sin could be so enticing that we would chance losing God's blessings in our lives? God does bring circumstances in like an annoyed or angry co worker for instance (will use my own case) I'm not fresh in my realization of the truth. I'm open to suggestions from the enemy or the world or the flesh. I don't have on the armor of God.

A sinner is someone who is not a saint. We are now sons of God., sheep of His pasture., saints, fellow heirs, joint heirs with Christ., God's beloved. Our identity is no longer sinner and God no longer sees us that way. We need to get a revelation of who we are IN Christ. Or we will be lacking some of our armor.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please clarify this last statement for me:



How do we attain God's perfect standard?

You can't. That's the point, and the reason as Paul said the law was given, SO we can realize we can not attain that standard. And thus, we should see Christ, The cross..

If we think we can attain that standard. then we may BELIEVE in the cross, which is well, even demons believe, But our faith will not be in the cross. It will be in ourt ability to "attain that standard"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually the term SINNER is a condition and not an action.

I think the term is used to losely.. It can mean all kinds of things, thus we have to look at context of how the word is used.

ie,

I am a sinner saved by grace.

My condition is saved, Not a sinner,, My condition was healed.. (although I am still technically a sinner, because I still fail to live up to Gods standard..) Thus technically, I am still a sinner, albiet, Saved by grace..

 

[eph610]

You can't. That's the point, and the reason as Paul said the law was given, SO we can realize we can not attain that standard. And thus, we should see Christ, The cross..

If we think we can attain that standard. then we may BELIEVE in the cross, which is well, even demons believe, But our faith will not be in the cross. It will be in ourt ability to "attain that standard"

I want to be clear I am hearing you correctly, so bear with me for all the questions.
I like to clarify statements instead of trying to debate them.

Do you agree that there is a gift of righteousness that comes along with the gift of Salvation?

 

[eph610]

I think the term is used to losely.. It can mean all kinds of things, thus we have to look at context of how the word is used.

ie,

I am a sinner saved by grace.

My condition is saved, Not a sinner,, My condition was healed.. (although I am still technically a sinner, because I still fail to live up to Gods standard..) Thus technically, I am still a sinner, albiet, Saved by grace..

Romans 6 says that the SINNER was crucified and buried with Christ. We are then raised into newness of Life.
At that point we put on the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which means we become a slave to righteousness not a slave to SIN.

In my own power I will never attain to God's standard, but I do attain God's Standard through the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, that I become when I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart.

When this happens God no longer sees you as a SINNER, he sees you as a son, because he see's you through Jesus.

Even in the Old Testament, we find a division of wicked versus blessed. Look at Psalms 1.

We still must confess when we still miss the mark and SIN even as a SON, but you are either a totally new creation or you are not.Telling people they are still a sinner, when they are a new creation is still condemnation and legalism.

God sees us as a SON or Daughter through the righteousness of Christ not as a sinner saved by his grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I want to be clear I am hearing you correctly, so bear with me for all the questions.
I like to clarify statements instead of trying to debate them.

Do you agree that there is a gift of righteousness that comes along with the gift of Salvation?

Yes I do agree.

That is not my righteousness though, It is Christ's.

It is his work imputed to me which saves me, and makes me acceptable to God.

Always ask questions, never be afraid

 

[eph610]

Yes I do agree.

That is not my righteousness though, It is Christ's.

It is his work imputed to me which saves me, and makes me acceptable to God.

Always ask questions, never be afraid

Thanks EG we are saying the same thing in different ways, and that is what I thought all along. So don't take my other post as punitive. I was just explaining it my way and both are ways are the way....

Whew, say that 10x fast...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 6 says that the SINNER was crucified and buried with Christ. We are then raised into newness of Life.
At that point we put on the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which means we become a slave to righteousness not a slave to SIN.

In my own power I will never attain to God's standard, but I do attain God's Standard through the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, that I become when I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart.

When this happens God no longer sees you as a SINNER, he sees you as a son, because he see's you through Jesus.

Even in the Old Testament, we find a division of wicked versus blessed. Look at Psalms 1.

We still must confess when we still miss the mark and SIN even as a SON, but you are either a totally new creation or you are not.Telling people they are still a sinner, when they are a new creation is still condemnation and legalism.

God sees us as a SON or Daughter through the righteousness of Christ not as a sinner saved by his grace.

I agree 100 %, But we have to look at it from all perspectives.

The legalist thinks he is ok, because he is not a sinner, He has not realised in his heart he is and always will be a sinner (as james said, if we break even the least of all the law. we are guilty of it all) according to Gods standard.

He has to realize this before he can call out to God to become Gods son.. because until then, he will think he can maintain some form of righteousness of his own power..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks EG we are saying the same thing in different ways, and that is what I thought all along. So don't take my other post as punitive. I was just explaining it my way and both are ways are the way....

Whew, say that 10x fast...

its all good. That why I said we must always look at context.. You will see most just take a few words we say and judge based on those words, Context means nothing, Thats what causes most of the false accusations..

 

[know1]

Grace is unmerited favor....you can't fall in and out of it. Its not a state of being.

It is when God moves in the life of a sinner, touches their heart and gives them enough faith to believe the gospel of what Christ has done for us upon the cross.

We don't add to our grace, we add to our faith....

Still trying to understand how anyone can "fall from grace".

If you don't understand how one can fall from grace then why are you trying to tell me that I have it wrong?
Isn't that the reason why the devil was able to remove the word of God from the heart of the recipient?
If the bible says one can fall from grace, then that same said one had to first be in the grace of God. And if the bible says one can fall from grace then the same said one can be moved from the grace of God to a place that is not in the grace of God.
Therefore, to say one cannot fall from the grace of God is to say what is written is a lie and your church doctrine is correct.