Father of Lies

[Seeker47]

We all know about the, “Father of Lies” and how good he is at his craft. We underestimate him at our peril. His most effective strategy is to use God’s own words to deceive. One of the passages he twists to separate us from God is John 1:17:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (KJV)

The more accurate reading of this passage is from the Greek:
“The law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

The conjunction “but” used in the KJV and many other versions; acts as an exception to the first statement. It would appear grace and truth did not exist before Jesus. Is this correct?

Some other examples:

The Common English Bible says it directly, grace and truth did not exist before Jesus. God must therefore be untruth.
“…as the Law was given through Moses, so grace and truth came into being through Jesus Christ.” (CEB)

The Gods Word translation tells us further that Kindness did not exist before Yeshua; that they were not characteristics of God.
“Laws were given through Moses, but kindness and truth came into existence through Jesus Christ.” (GW)

The Living Bible tells us that God is rigid, demanding and merciless. (Can these people even read?)
"For Moses gave us only the Law with its rigid demands and merciless justice, while Jesus Christ brought us loving forgiveness as well." (TLB)

The Voice translation tells us God gave us rules “but” Jesus gave us gifts.
“You see, Moses gave us rules to live by, but Jesus the Anointed offered us gifts of grace and truth.” (VOICE)

Finally, the World English Bible would indicate loving kindness and truth did not exist before Jesus. Really?
“Moses gave the law, but Jesus Christ gave this loving kindness and truth.” (WE)

Do any of these passages give us a realistic view of God the Father? Jesus said he and the father are one; but how can this be? Jesus said he can do nothing except what he has seen the Father do. What? He said he came to do his fathers will, but it doesn’t sound like it to me.

It appears that the Father of Lies has been very successful in twisting this passage to create a disconnect, an amputation, a division between Jesus and his father, between the first truths God has given his people and his later truths. Only when we ground ourselves in the full truth can we see past this deception.

The greatest act of grace ever, the one from which all other acts of grace can flow, is stated plainly in the first five words of the Bible.

 

[JonathanBentley]

Psalm 119 is pretty good at explaining a right view of the old Testament.

 

[oyster67]

It would appear grace and truth did not exist before Jesus. Is this correct?

Jesus did not finish His work on the Cross until He went to the Cross. (Is that the grace to which you are referring?)
It is true that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord much earlier. Depends on what grace we are referring to.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The more accurate reading of this passage is from the Greek: “The law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

A few things to note about John 1:17

A. The Critical and Received texts are identical
CRITICAL TEXT
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωυσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
RECEIVED TEXT
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

B. The literal interlinear translation is as follows:
For the Law through Moses was given. Grace and truth through Jesus Christ came.

C. There is no question that the Holy Spirit -- through John -- wants to contrast Moses and Christ in this verse. And particularly the abundance of grace after the coming of Christ. Therefore we have these two verses together: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. [Note: the word "but" is in italics to indicate that it is not in the original Greek text]

D. Were the KJB translators justified in inserting "but"? It would seem so.
The Law of Moses did not exclude the grace of God, but at the same time it did not stress the grace of God. God demanded strict obedience to the Law, but God did not tell Israel that anyone could be justified by Torah observance. On the other hand the Gospel of Christ stresses again and again that we are justified BY GRACE through faith. So the Gospel is all about the grace of God, and excludes the works of the Law.

What should always be kept in mind is the fact of the finished work of Christ. The Law of Moses simply pre-figured the finished work of Christ. However under the Law sins were only "covered". But Christ -- the Lamb of God -- took away the sin of the world. And that is what opened the way for the grace of God to be offered to all mankind through the Gospel (Titus 2:11).

So the Father of Lies is definitely not involved in "twisting" this verse. In any event with a title like that, the focus should be on Satan and what he does.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Re: Father of Lies

So; every time a natural-born liar comes into the world, it helps perpetuate
the Serpent's posterity?

● Ps 58:3 . .The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies
go astray from birth.
_

 

[Seeker47]

Jesus did not finish His work on the Cross until He went to the Cross. (Is that the grace to which you are referring?)
It is true that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord much earlier. Depends on what grace we are referring to.

My comments were directed to the interpretations presented in various Bible versions and how those are often twisted. The point of the post is the marginalization of Gods word in the first testament. The implication that YHWH is a cold, calculated, unmerciful law giver is simply wrong, dangerous and unbiblical. He is the source of all grace. To say otherwise is an attempt to divide the word of YHWH and his people.

The only test for the accuracy of a Second Testament quote is the First Testament.

 

[Seeker47]

A few things to note about John 1:17

A. The Critical and Received texts are identical
CRITICAL TEXT
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωυσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
RECEIVED TEXT
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

B. The literal interlinear translation is as follows:
For the Law through Moses was given. Grace and truth through Jesus Christ came.

C. There is no question that the Holy Spirit -- through John -- wants to contrast Moses and Christ in this verse. And particularly the abundance of grace after the coming of Christ. Therefore we have these two verses together: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. [Note: the word "but" is in italics to indicate that it is not in the original Greek text]

D. Were the KJB translators justified in inserting "but"? It would seem so.
The Law of Moses did not exclude the grace of God, but at the same time it did not stress the grace of God. God demanded strict obedience to the Law, but God did not tell Israel that anyone could be justified by Torah observance. On the other hand the Gospel of Christ stresses again and again that we are justified BY GRACE through faith. So the Gospel is all about the grace of God, and excludes the works of the Law.

What should always be kept in mind is the fact of the finished work of Christ. The Law of Moses simply pre-figured the finished work of Christ. However under the Law sins were only "covered". But Christ -- the Lamb of God -- took away the sin of the world. And that is what opened the way for the grace of God to be offered to all mankind through the Gospel (Titus 2:11).

So the Father of Lies is definitely not involved in "twisting" this verse. In any event with a title like that, the focus should be on Satan and what he does.

I agree with your post but do not fully understand everything you say. You say "...under the law sins were only covered". I'm not sure I understand what that means. I'm also not sure what you mean with the statement that grace, "...excludes the works of the law". I am not supporting salvation by works but clearly "the law" does exist and the earthly consequences still apply, even for the forgiven.

Please accept my utmost respect.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My comments were directed to the interpretations presented in various Bible versions and how those are often twisted.

This goes right back to the fact that all modern bible versions are corrupt and misleading. People should stick to the King James Bible. Some of those translations are actually lies (and of course the Father of Lies is behind them). The grace of God is manifested from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Seeker47]

.
Re: Father of Lies

So; every time a natural-born liar comes into the world, it helps perpetuate
the Serpent's posterity?

● Ps 58:3 . .The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies
go astray from birth.
_

It appears so to me....

 

[Seeker47]

This goes right back to the fact that all modern bible versions are corrupt and misleading. People should stick to the King James Bible. Some of those translations are actually lies (and of course the Father of Lies is behind them). The grace of God is manifested from Genesis to Revelation.

The KJV is my reference of choice but ultimately I must go back to the First Testament for my final word. But that's just me!

 

[Nehemiah6]

I agree with your post but do not fully understand everything you say. You say "...under the law sins were only covered". I'm not sure I understand what that means.

The answer to that is found in Hebrews 10:1-5:
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

I'm also not sure what you mean with the statement that grace, "...excludes the works of the law".

Once again the answer is in Scripture (Rom 3:23-28):
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds [works] of the law.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus did not finish His work on the Cross until He went to the Cross. (Is that the grace to which you are referring?)
It is true that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord much earlier. Depends on what grace we are referring to.

Jesus said his word was finished before he went to the cross

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that was his work to tell the truth to the world

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus suffering and death is an atonement or propitiation the covenant is what he said prior to his death

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

We all know about the, “Father of Lies” and how good he is at his craft. We underestimate him at our peril. His most effective strategy is to use God’s own words to deceive. One of the passages he twists to separate us from God is John 1:17:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (KJV)

The more accurate reading of this passage is from the Greek:
“The law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

The conjunction “but” used in the KJV and many other versions; acts as an exception to the first statement. It would appear grace and truth did not exist before Jesus. Is this correct?

Some other examples:

The Common English Bible says it directly, grace and truth did not exist before Jesus. God must therefore be untruth.
“…as the Law was given through Moses, so grace and truth came into being through Jesus Christ.” (CEB)

The Gods Word translation tells us further that Kindness did not exist before Yeshua; that they were not characteristics of God.
“Laws were given through Moses, but kindness and truth came into existence through Jesus Christ.” (GW)

The Living Bible tells us that God is rigid, demanding and merciless. (Can these people even read?)
"For Moses gave us only the Law with its rigid demands and merciless justice, while Jesus Christ brought us loving forgiveness as well." (TLB)

The Voice translation tells us God gave us rules “but” Jesus gave us gifts.
“You see, Moses gave us rules to live by, but Jesus the Anointed offered us gifts of grace and truth.” (VOICE)

Finally, the World English Bible would indicate loving kindness and truth did not exist before Jesus. Really?
“Moses gave the law, but Jesus Christ gave this loving kindness and truth.” (WE)

Do any of these passages give us a realistic view of God the Father? Jesus said he and the father are one; but how can this be? Jesus said he can do nothing except what he has seen the Father do. What? He said he came to do his fathers will, but it doesn’t sound like it to me.

It appears that the Father of Lies has been very successful in twisting this passage to create a disconnect, an amputation, a division between Jesus and his father, between the first truths God has given his people and his later truths. Only when we ground ourselves in the full truth can we see past this deception.

The greatest act of grace ever, the one from which all other acts of grace can flow, is stated plainly in the first five words of the Bible.

That's why it's good to read several translations of a verse and to be prayerful about it. I like Bible Gateway and Bible Hub for that.

 

[Seeker47]

That's why it's good to read several translations of a verse and to be prayerful about it. I like Bible Gateway and Bible Hub for that.

Yup.....I use both constantly along with a interlinear Greek and Hebrew translations.

 

[Blade]

That's why it's good to read several translations of a verse and to be prayerful about it. I like Bible Gateway and Bible Hub for that.

Praise God for His word. Anyone seeking reading any translation I can post 24 that I Know of.. anyone seeking asking Him to open your eyes He always does. So always seeking how it was originally written is wise yet all Greek and Hebrew do not agree

John 1:17 "For the law through Moses [idem] was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ came". Satan does get blamed for things he never did. God, Christ, sweet holy Spirit are real. Live in us forever. We can ask the Father anything in Jesus name. Like Peter and John said that man faith in that name. We can ask about a verse we don't understand written in off the top 24 different translations and He will still and always tell you what He meant. Its when we tell Him what He meant and try to ask..He will say nothing.

Anyway always wise to see it was originally written. Yeah Moses law...Christ grace and truth. Moses talked about Christ blah blah blah

 

[Webers.Home]

.
I think we can safely assert Jesus wasn't a natural-born liar.

● 1Pet 2:22 . . He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.
(cf. Isa 53:9)

And I think we can safely assert that everyone else is for sure a natural-born
liar.

● 1John 5:19 . . The whole world lieth in wickedness.

The Greek word translated "lieth" basically means to be stretched out in the
prone. So what we have there is the world asleep not on a bed of roses,
rather, on a bed consisting of everything bad; which of course has to include
lies because dishonesty is a very common form of evil.

Most of the Christians with whom I've dialogued online are willing to attest
everyone is born with a fallen nature, but I've yet to encounter one willing to
admit to being a natural-born liar even though every Christian started out
making their beds the very same way as all the rest of the world.
_

 

[JonathanBentley]

All bible translations are good for comparison. I personally think kjv is the closest but sometimes find the niv helps.

 

[studentoftheword]

We all know about the, “Father of Lies” and how good he is at his craft. We underestimate him at our peril. His most effective strategy is to use God’s own words to deceive. One of the passages he twists to separate us from God is John 1:17:

John 1:17:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (KJV)

The more accurate reading of this passage is from the Greek:
“The law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

I say -----I think this shows our ignorance of us not doing our research on these words in the Greek

Sorry to tell you that these 2 words by and through are used interchangeably in Scripture and using these 2 words for the same scripture is not twisting the meaning or message of the scripture ----- as through also means by in the Greek -----

Greek word for Through ------also means by

Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of , through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

I say
here is another example ----this are not twisted by the Father of Lies ---this is God's word and God Inspired -----

Matthew 1:22 Prep
GRK: ὑπὸ Κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου
NAS: by the Lord through the prophet:
KJV: of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
INT: by the Lord through the prophet

 

[Seeker47]

I say -----I think this shows our ignorance of us not doing our research on these words in the Greek

Sorry to tell you that these 2 words by and through are used interchangeably in Scripture and using these 2 words for the same scripture is not twisting the meaning or message of the scripture ----- as through also means by in the Greek -----

Greek word for Through ------also means by

Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of , through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

I say
here is another example ----this are not twisted by the Father of Lies ---this is God's word and God Inspired -----

Matthew 1:22 Prep
GRK: ὑπὸ Κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου
NAS: by the Lord through the prophet:
KJV: of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
INT: by the Lord through the prophet

If I surrender my point with the "but" in the KJV (which I am still unwilling to do), does that negate all the other quotes? I am a long way from being convinced my conclusions of an intentional disconnect or division are incorrect.

I do agree on the importance of checking the original Greek. I would take it one step further and check these versions against the First Testament to determine accuracy.

Thank you for being interested enough to respond.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
FAQ: How many people must someone kill illegally in order to qualify as a
murderer?

REPLY: Just one.

FAQ: How many robberies must someone commit in order to qualify as a
thief?

REPLY: Just one.

FAQ: How many times must someone sleep with another's spouse in order
to qualify as an adulterer?

REPLY: Just one.

FAQ: How many times must someone take The Lord's name in vain in order
to qualify as a blasphemer?

REPLY: Just once.

FAQ: How many times must someone vilify an innocent person's name in
order to qualify as a slanderer?

REPLY: Just once.

FAQ: How many deliberate sins must someone commit to qualify as a willful
sinner?

REPLY: Just one.

FAQ: How many times must someone be dishonest in order to qualify as a
liar.

REPLY: Just once.
_