Finneyists among us
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Here is a link where you can download early church material.
Ante-Nicene Fathers – VOL I – IX : HolyBooks.com – download free ebooks
Volume 1
http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Ante-Nicene-Fathers-Vol-1.pdf
I would start with the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians where he calls the people in that church to forsake the wickedness they had turned to less they perish in their sins. He calls them to godliness and purity and then gives many examples of Saints and Prophets whom ought to be adhered to.
He speaks of repentance, obedience, righteousness and even purity of heart. You will not find any mention of Jesus dying to effect a legal exchange which cloaks ongoing iniquity of heart. You won't find any mention of the "righteousness of Christ" being credited to an individuals account. Instead it is all about WALKING THE WALK as well as TALKING TO THE TALK and that those who do so are abiding in the doctrine of Christ.
Take a look at Polycarp who was a student of John. His doctrine all all about WALKING THE WALK as well as TALKING THE TALK with no conception whatsoever that salvation is some positional state apart from actual manifest purity.
Now spend some time reading the other authors presented in that volume. You'll gain an understanding of how the doctrines of Christ were perceived in that time and how Christian's were to live their lives.
Now if you spend some time going through each of the volumes, through the Greek Fathers and then to the Latin Fathers and then you can go and look up and begin reading Augustine. You will find that Christian doctrine becomes much more philosophical and abstract as time goes by. By the time Augustine comes on the scene in the Fourth Century the focus is no longer on conduct and purity of heart. Rather it is in the philosophical condition of man, the hierarchy of the church, and the doctrines which effect reconciliation between man and God via the church hierarchy. Hearty purity has for all intense and purposes been thrown out the window by that time and in its place has been erected the philosophical foundations which stand opposed to genuine heart purity being even possible. Thus the focus of theology really becomes all about the means to bypass the purging of iniquity in the reconciliation process.
It is no wonder that the Catholic Church became so powerful. When Augustine entered the scene the church system was ripe to accept his philosophical musings as he applied them to the Bible.
After having done that one can clearly see the basis of modern theology, both the Arminian and the Reformed systems. One can see how both systems evolved from the same seed (Augustine) and thus teach the Gospel is a very different manner to the early church.
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The idea that if you walk the walk and talk the talk you are not following Christ is ungodly teaching that is pernicious, to use words of Herosefromthedead. Christ, who forgives our sins, talked a lot about our walk.
skinski.
this is not as complicated as you make it.
what you are teaching about the sin unto death is your opinion, and is not grounded in the Bible's definition.
the "sin not unto death" is very clearly defined for us in the passages you still haven't resolved - for good reason - you refuse to believe them.
1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
so what about the sin unto death, that are not to pray for?
you're right about it being rebellion - but you missed the mark on why it is unto death, and why we are not pray for it (recall 1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
that is UNCONFESSED sin by men who believe they have not sinned; or refuse to be convicted of their sin, and repent.
no matter how hard it is, or how often they fail - IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
where do we find the sin unto death, not to be prayed for?
Jeremiah 7
1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2“Stand in the gate of the LORD’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all you men of Judah who enter these gates to worship the LORD. 3Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. 4Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.’
5“For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, 6if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, 7then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.
8“Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. 9Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, 10and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—only to go on doing all these abominations? 11Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD. 12Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel. 13And now, because you have done all these things, declares the LORD, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, 14therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15And I will cast you out of my sight, as I cast out all your kinsmen, all the offspring of Ephraim.
16“As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. 17Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. 19Is it I whom they provoke? declares the LORD. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? 20Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.”
21Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. 22For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward. 25From the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt to this day, I have persistently sent all my servants the prophets to them, day after day. 26Yet they did not listen to me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.
27“So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you. 28And you shall say to them, ‘This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips.
29 “‘Cut off your hair and cast it away;
raise a lamentation on the bare heights,
for the LORD has rejected and forsaken
the generation of his wrath.’
did not accept discipline.
refused to be convicted.
refused to acknowledge their sin.
refused to confess their sin.
stiffened their neck.
did worse than their fathers.
as opposed to:
1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
the sin that leads to death is refusing to be convicted and to repent and confess and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
the incorrigible impenitent is not to be prayed for.
okay?
I have no idea who this guy Finney is, nor do I care, but I care deeply about our world as it accepts Christ.
I see great danger in the false teaching I see reflected in these posts. They are falsely depicting Christ as so loving and so forgiving that Christ accepts the sin in people. Anyone who teaches about the narrow road Christ taught is said to not teach Christ!! That is so wrong. Christ gave us the way to repent of our sins, be forgiven and made clean, and with the HS we are to walk in His ways.
This wrong teaching is very serious. We can whitewash sin, so adultery is an affair, and sinful living is an alternative lifestyle. God is not a judge, but through Christ He is loving and forgiving of all and asks nothing of us.
It is very amazing teaching, because much of the teaching is truth. It is only a lie because it omits so much of truth. These people would know that if only the walk God asks of us was presented and never the way of cleansing through Christ, they would know it was a lie, even if the walk was correctly presented. They are doing the same thing, just backward. Both lead to death.