For Sabbath keepers, How does obedience to the Sabbath affect your Salvation?
- Thread starter KohenMatt
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J
jahsoul
Guest
I use the phrase "2 trains of thoughts" because Jesus approached the Sabbath totally different than the religious leaders of the time. If you read about Jesus and the Sabbath, he didn't follow the "letter of the law" per se. He healed, his disciples picked grain, and even said that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. This conflicted with a lot of what people believed at the time.
Actually, the Pharisees position on the Sabbath is very complicated. In Ezekiel 20 we read something that is important to keep in mind...
Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Why was God going to do this?
Eze 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
There were two sins that Israel had great problem with, idolatry and Sabbath breaking. The knee jerk reaction upon returning to the land was to build a fence around the Law. Their idea was not to build a fence at the cliff, but that they would keep people far away from the cliff. For an example, read the account in Mark 7 adn notice how many times Christ mentions the traditions of men and the commandments of men.
Now to Mark 2...
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
The accusation was that the disciples were harvesting and threshing grain on the Sabbath. Christ understood that there was a vast difference between picking a few heads of grain and rubbing them to remove the chaff and going out into the fields adn harvesting your crops.
Did they really violate the Sabbath Law? No. Did the violate the traditions of the Pharisees? Yep, and that was the problem, the Pharisees could not distinguish, they had no ability to see the correct application of the Sabbath Law.
Did the Israelites who merely tried to gather manna (but didn't actually gather anything as the disciples did) break the sabbath law? Yep.
And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather [manna], and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Exodus 16:27-29
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
reading the bible. we see people who were obedient died. Unless you think Moses and King David are still alive.
we also see the worst of sinners were usually the greatest of Gods people )ie david and paul were both murderers.
J
jahsoul
Guest
I agree with a LOT of what you say but have to disagree with this notion. The Sabbath according to the Law of Moses was strict (but seemingly fluid but that's another topic). I don't know if you remember the story about the man getting stoned to death for gathering sticks (Num 15) but you weren't supposed to do anything on the Sabbath, even leave your tent (but then Sabbath offering was establish and the priest could work on the Sabbath). IIRC, everything had to be done the day before the Sabbath, so you only ate what you prepared the day before, so according to the letter of the Law, the Pharisees were right as it related to them picking and eating grain on the Sabbath. So yes, they violated the Sabbath Law.
I understand your determination to get across some points that God makes to us. God says that He is God and is the one who saves, it is not us who saves ourselves. You say that over and over, so does God, we get it. You say that to obey the law like robots would just isn't going to work. We get that, too. But in your preaching what we know, and fighting anyone making any other points about what God says about the law, you are lighting God, even as you report what God says.
Your "you can shine before the Lord" is a distortion of what God tells us. or of what people are saying when they talk about keeping the law, and you know it. That isn't nice of you.
Please vote, Redtent. I have witnessed you before saying that one must keep the sabbath to be saved (zone will back me up). Believe what you believe and say what you believe. What are you afraid/ashamed of?
T
tripsin
Guest
We shouldn't be interested in 'shining' before God. We should be interested in expressing the nature of His Son Jesus Christ by how we live and act. That, is what delights the Father.
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal. 5.
We are no longer under the law but under grace. Is the law important, righteous, for ever? yes, to those who are not yet saved.
The Pharisees were right?
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
I am pretty sure they were not right, especially in light of this...
Exo 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
The work that was not to be done was the EARNING of the daily bread. That is why they were not to gather the manna on the Sabbath. just as we do not go out andharvest our garden on the Sabbath today.
I don't think any of the choices you give for us to vote on explains what keeping the Sabbath does. Certainly it doesn't save us. Therefore it really doesn't affect our salvation, Christ explains how we do that.
It does affect our walk with the Lord. God says in plain, everyday words that he blesses the day that in the book of Genesis is called the Sabbath. The rest of the days are given numbers, but the Sabbath day is plain. Men have used all kinds of their reasoning to change it, some of it pretty good man logic. According to history documents, Nimrod decided to make the sun the center of worship, so they used Sunday way back at almost the beginning of earth time.
I thought the church knew what it was doing when it decided on Sunday, and it was made legal by the church as far back as 324. But as I grew in my study and understanding, now I would rather choose what I know is what God says. I am not God, so I don't know how God sees that in relation to me, but God does say to be obedient to Him and His thinking is higher than man thinking. So I follow God.
It does affect our walk with the Lord. God says in plain, everyday words that he blesses the day that in the book of Genesis is called the Sabbath. The rest of the days are given numbers, but the Sabbath day is plain. Men have used all kinds of their reasoning to change it, some of it pretty good man logic. According to history documents, Nimrod decided to make the sun the center of worship, so they used Sunday way back at almost the beginning of earth time.
I thought the church knew what it was doing when it decided on Sunday, and it was made legal by the church as far back as 324. But as I grew in my study and understanding, now I would rather choose what I know is what God says. I am not God, so I don't know how God sees that in relation to me, but God does say to be obedient to Him and His thinking is higher than man thinking. So I follow God.
I think there needs to be another option, Matt.
- Keeping the Sabbath has no bearing on your Salvation, but it does affect your standing with GOD.
I have never said you must keep the Sabbath to be saved. The people Zone follows closely are people who interpret God, not scripture. I ignore her. I am afraid? I am ashamed? You know my mind and heart? You are in a position to judge me personally, rather than simply state that you believe that keeping the Sabbath does not save us? I believe that too, as I often say. Why are you attacking me instead of working for God?
I also report that God wants us to be obedient to what God tells us in scripture. I don't think that is reporting God incorrectly.
Let's keep it as is since the Sabbath/Salvation issue is the main debate right now.
Someone else can start an obedience affects our standing before God poll if they want.
They were not eating a handful of grain as they walked through a field, they were gathering the entire days ration. Do you not see a difference?