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GRA
Guest
Yes - believers are "removed" or "taken out of the way" before the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out upon the earth"...
'7 vials' = 'Wrath of God'
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'7 vials' = 'Wrath of God'
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Therapon
Guest
Revelation isn’t just a series of bad-hair days for the wicked who happened to be on earth during the "Great Tribulation." Revelation is repetitive. It is made up of roughly 12 figurative prophecies that are parallel, all of which are mostly about events that have already taken place during this age.
Here is how you know. Many Hebrew writings are parallel in nature, The Psalms, Isaiah, Daniel, Zechariah. A Hebrew writer says something one way and then repeats the SAME idea in DIFFERENT words later on. Those repeats can be a sentence, a paragraph, or even several chapters long.
The same is true of Revelation. What Jesus declared in one prophecy, he repeats in different words in the next, but He did so in an organized way, using a well known Hebrew poetic form called the CHIASM. Here are a couple of chiasms that have been shortened for clarity; the full text is in your Bible:
Psalms 68:15-16
A. The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan.
B. an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
B. Why leap ye, ye high hills?
A. this is the hill which God desireth to dwell...
Mark 5:3-5
A. Who had his dwelling among the tombs
B. and no man could bind him,
C. no, not with chains:
C. he had been bound with chains,
B. neither could any man tame him.
A. And always he was in the tombs...
In the above AB=BA chiasm, there were not four concepts, but two concepts about the same subject, REPEATED in different words. In the ABC=CBA chiasm, there were not six subjects, just three, and they were REPEATED in different words.
The point being: Revelation is chiasmic, the whole book is composed of two ABC=CBA chiasms so its prophecies are REPETITIVE and parallel. So the Bowls of Wrath are fulfilled during the end-times era, but they are "the last" so they are final trials that befall the Middle East before the Last Trumpet sounds, which ends everything. But if you want to know which prophecy is parallel to which other prophecy and why, you’ll need to read: http://www.fishhouseministries.com/pdf/Bifids_Chiasms.pdf
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cfultz3
Guest
Mr Ellis,
Why not start a 'blog' or 'group' here and have it by invitation. There are people who want to talk about what you have to say, but it is hard to talk when there is a lot of distraction. It would be more of conversation and less of defending (but explaining).
Why not start a 'blog' or 'group' here and have it by invitation. There are people who want to talk about what you have to say, but it is hard to talk when there is a lot of distraction. It would be more of conversation and less of defending (but explaining).
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Therapon
Guest
You are right about a couple, but not all. I left out a phrase which made my earlier statement erroneous. Here is how I should have written it: "All prophecy relating to this present age is fulfilled at the last trumpet."
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Therapon
Guest
That's easy enough, and do I ever agree. This is laborious. <smile>
I use www.gotomeeting.com and host Bible prophecy seminars on it all the time. We could do another one for a limited number of folks, but the program only accepts 25 computers at a time. We just need to agree on time and day, I send a link, you click on it and you're in the meeting. It's 100% interactive so you'll need a headset for audio and a camera on your computer. PM me for my e-mail address.
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Therapon
Guest
<sigh> That is now provably counter-scriptural. The church is on earth's until the last trumpet sounds 1Cor 15:51-52, and time as a natural phenomenon ends when the last trumpet sounds, Revelation 10:6-7 . .
". . . there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Man, I gotta tell you, I hate this. Why can't you guys just believe the Bible and let those doctrinal fables go?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
the wrath of God is tribulation. that is why it is greater than any the world has ever seen.
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peterT
Guest
The doctrinal fables come from you
There is time no longer for us Christians at the last trumpet
Doesn’t say there is time no longer for the people that are left
There we are stand on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast AFTER the last trumpet Then the seven angels having the seven last plagues pour out the wrath of God upon the people that have the mark of the beast.
Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
As you can see we are in the heavens or some place AFTER getting the victory over the beast and his make and before the wrath is poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast
Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
So there IS time after the last trumpet for the wicked, the people that have the mark, the unbelievers, and the five foolish virgins
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peterT
Guest
What are you saying?
That we are here for the seven vials of the wrath of God
If so, do you have any scripture?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
No I am stating the time of tribulation and the time of Gods wrath are the same event. I mentioned nothing of us being here or not.
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peterT
Guest
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Therapon
Guest
You are making doctrine from what the Scripture doesn't say. in my opinion, we should get our doctrine from what the Bible does say. And yes Revelation 11:15 does say there is no time after the last trumpet . . .
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
See any battle of Armageddon, seven-year tribulation or thousand-year millennium in that verse? Not there are they? So it appears we are instantly translated into the eternal kingdom of God when the last trumpet sounds.
However, you are indeed right about some things: The great white throne where the wicked are judged in accordance with what is in those books happens after the last trumpet as does the new heaven and new earth. The beast, Satan and and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire after the last trumpet, too, etc. etc.
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peterT
Guest
Nothing about being on time for the wicked in that verse Bro
No, I am making doctrine from what scripture dose say.
There we are stand on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast AFTER the last trumpet Then the seven angels having the seven last plagues pour out the wrath of God upon the people that have the mark of the beast.
Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
As you can see we are in the heavens or some place AFTER getting the victory over the beast and his mark and before the wrath is poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast (there still in time there for them)
No I am making doctrine from what scripture dose say, stop making things up.
And it’s not the battle OF Armageddon, it’s the battle AT Armageddon.
Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And I never mentioned a seven year tribulation
And what 7 year tribulation? there is no seven year tribulation, just 3 ½ years. Or 1260 days or 42 months or time times and ½ of time.
stop making things up to help justify your position you don’t need to do that Bro scripture will do it .
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cfultz3
Guest
That would be good also. But I was talking about the blog we can make here at CC. That way, people can read what you say and you have control over what would be considered the thread. Here is the link to your blog page and if you look for blog settings, you can set up your blogs and its permissions.
http://christianchat.com/blogs/therapon/
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Therapon
Guest
As I wrote in an earlier post, Revelation is chiasmic, the whole book is composed of two ABC=CBA chiasms so its prophecies are 12 parallel pictures of the Christian era. The doxology of the saints appears several times in Revelation. These are not different events, but repetitive accounts of the same event. If you want to know how to prove it, please read: http://www.fishhouseministries.com/p...ds_Chiasms.pdf. and after you do, you might find we are closer to being on the same page than you currently believe.
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peterT
Guest
Blar Blar Blar
have you got any scripture for any of that?
I will never be on that page with you.
40 years of study and you still come up short every post
ellis, are all prophetic days to be taken for years, and is this a universal principle?
does this include months, since months are made of days?
Pg 52, The False Prophet
and are all days to be interpreted as years, since years are made of days - i.e.: the 70th week?