for those who do not sin
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B
BananaPie
Guest
Zone, I understand the accuracy of this thread because I'm 4th generation of fundamentally Reformed Baptists.
The first music I ever remember hearing were hymns being sung over my crib by my mother and grandmother. All my life I cannot recall one day not knowing about God, let alone not believing in God. In spite of being from CA, I have never known life outside the conservative Christian pews, yet within the "Church" ranks, I've seen the effects of sin, gossipers, hypocrisy, betrayal, and I know too well what sinners at war can do.
Therefore, since my early teens, the fear of the Lord has been a form of awe and reverence, which has taken center stage in forming my life; all my life I have intentionally not wanted to "be like them." That is, any behavior which would bring shame to the name of my Lord Jesus, I rather not participate in, and that mentality has spared me much sorrow and shame over the years. In the process God has granted me to be accountable to His name wherever I go.
Yes, I have sinned plenty over the course of my life, and each time the Holy Spirit has convicted me sorely. I fully understand that I am a sinner saved by God's pure grace, yet I do believe God can/does sanctify believers. I believe that sinning eventually DOES grieve the believer to such a degree that sinning dilutes like pee in the loo every morning. :chuckles:
I believe that the fear of the Lord builds humility in us, and godly humility takes over when we come to understand that our best and most ethical behaviors are still "filthy rags" in comparison to the most Holy God. It's in that Mary Magdalene heart, when we yield to God at the foot of the Cross that the righteousness of Christ in vested upon us, and Lord and Behold! we are no longer shamed or condemned, but have become the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, I'm very capable of sinning, but by far, I intentionally prefer to exist in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and by God's grace, He grants the desires of my heart. The Lord is good.
The first music I ever remember hearing were hymns being sung over my crib by my mother and grandmother. All my life I cannot recall one day not knowing about God, let alone not believing in God. In spite of being from CA, I have never known life outside the conservative Christian pews, yet within the "Church" ranks, I've seen the effects of sin, gossipers, hypocrisy, betrayal, and I know too well what sinners at war can do.
Therefore, since my early teens, the fear of the Lord has been a form of awe and reverence, which has taken center stage in forming my life; all my life I have intentionally not wanted to "be like them." That is, any behavior which would bring shame to the name of my Lord Jesus, I rather not participate in, and that mentality has spared me much sorrow and shame over the years. In the process God has granted me to be accountable to His name wherever I go.
Yes, I have sinned plenty over the course of my life, and each time the Holy Spirit has convicted me sorely. I fully understand that I am a sinner saved by God's pure grace, yet I do believe God can/does sanctify believers. I believe that sinning eventually DOES grieve the believer to such a degree that sinning dilutes like pee in the loo every morning. :chuckles:
I believe that the fear of the Lord builds humility in us, and godly humility takes over when we come to understand that our best and most ethical behaviors are still "filthy rags" in comparison to the most Holy God. It's in that Mary Magdalene heart, when we yield to God at the foot of the Cross that the righteousness of Christ in vested upon us, and Lord and Behold! we are no longer shamed or condemned, but have become the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, I'm very capable of sinning, but by far, I intentionally prefer to exist in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and by God's grace, He grants the desires of my heart. The Lord is good.
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Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
So do you deny the above verse, the Mercy of God to all mankind, while we were yet sinners he died for us?
C
cfultz3
Guest
You implied that he teaches that we are not to confess our sins. But yet, he would readily say we are to confess.
You implied by slander that he purposely mislead by using Scripture so that he could deny other parts of Scripture. Yet, this is but your assumption. Did you ask him his thoughts on those verses you said he malicely denied?
Yet, again, we are told in Scripture that one only fools himself into thinking that God cannot find fault in them. It even states that the Truth is not (abs. neg.) in the one who thinks in such a manner. So you see, you claim people are teaching that we can live in open rebellion, yet none claims such. When all the while, Scripture says that we do (present indicative) posses sin.
Who then are we to believe, the one who came slandering to cause fear in those who would be listening to him, although his words were full of slander? Or, do we listen to the One who says that if we were to sin, then we do have an Advocate with the Father? Do we listen to the One who became our High Priest and said He understands our infirmities. Or, do we listen to the one who implies in his writings that we are to cleanse ourselves before God's acceptance of us, although it says, "the One who is sanctifying and those who are BEING sanctified..."? Is it not so that we are being made holy by Him and not by the works of the flesh?
How then is it said that we are delivered from the darkness if we have already cleansed our own selves? Would we not have been our own savior? What need is there then to have answered the door, seeing that the One who wants to cleanse us is no longer needed? Do we not confess to the One knocking? How can we confess unless we open the door to Him first?
Yet, I ask once again, have you asked him if he denies those verses? No!! Yet, you boldly convicted him of open deception.
The one who falsely accuses gain only the audience made to fear by those false accusations.
please post here when you last sinned.
i assume you haven't sinned since conversion.
testify!
Pride goeth before a big fall, let the assuming one since my conversion, stone me to death.
What does the Bible teach?
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1. He died for all.
2. He died so that we can live unto God.
3. Old things are passed away for the Christian.
4. All things are become new for those whom are IN Christ.
5. God reconciled the world unto Himself via Jesus Christ (for He was IN Christ).
6. Thus the ministry of reconciliation is given us through Christ where we be made the righteousness of God in Him.
7. Paul beseeches us to BE RECONCILED (ie. it is not automatic)
Compare that to Hebrews 10:16-22 where we read...
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
1. The law of God is written upon the heart.
2. Our sins and iniquities are remember no more.
3. Where these sins and iniquities are remitted there is NO MORE OFFERING.
4. We enter boldly into the holiest of holies by the blood of Jesus.
5. We enter by a NEW AND LIVING WAY which he consecrated for us. What is this way? It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2). The old and dead way was THE LAW which only regulated the outward conduct of a man. The new and living way regulated THE HEART.
6. We draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith and OUR HEARTS ARE SPRINKLED OF AN EVIL CONSCIENCE.
Do you think it is possible to approach God with a TRUE HEART by a NEW AND LIVING WAY when you are still in rebellion? NO! It is impossible.
That is why James writes...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
We have to receive the implanted Word within. The Word cannot be received in rebellion. Rebellion is REJECTION of the Word. Jesus Christ is the Light that lights all men (Joh 1:9) and Jesus Christ is the Word (Joh 1:14). One cannot RECEIVE CHRIST and REJECT THE LIGHT at the same time because Jesus and the Light is one and the same thing.
This is why John writes...
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We have to WALK in the light as He is IN the light. That means DOING or ABIDING or OBEYING. It is not a mental assent to some "positional state" which then manifests itself sometime later down the road. NO! When one is truly born again ALL THINGS become new and old things are passed away. It is a REALITY. The INWARD MAN is changed. The heart is washed of an evil conscience whereby we are able to submit ourselves to God WHOLEHEARTEDLY and be taught as little children.
Modern theology has so perverted the truths of Scripture that they teach this purely positional salvation which one simple "trusts in" whilst the heart remains wicked. That is why so many who buy into it defend being able to sin and remain justified. They cannot conceive in their minds that we OVERCOME SIN through Jesus Christ. They don't believe it. They think that sin is some sort of ethereal substance associated with being in a flesh body and thus ongoing sin is necessitated by the flesh. Thus their minds are completely shut off from the possibility of heart purity by which we...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
There is no iniquity in love. NONE! One may fall short due to ignorance and thus need to be disciplined and corrected but such sin is not the result of a defiled heart. The heart of a Christian is PURE.
Look at what Paul wrote...
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
The end of the commandment is LOVE (charity) out of a PURE HEART, a GOOD CONSCIENCE and REAL FAITH. Yet some swerve from this doctrine and misuse the law. Paul then makes it clear that the law was not made for the righteous but for the disobedient. That is because those with a PURE HEART and a GOOD CONSCIENCE and REAL FAITH do not need the law because BY NATURE they produce the fruit of righteousness. They are abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.
This notion of sins being forgiven in advance whilst the heart is still actually depraved is nonsense. It is a most demonic and dangerous thing to believe.
Why did Jesus give this warning?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Jesus knew very well that at the judgment a multitude of people would face the judgment as works of iniquity. They would claim to have done many wonderful works in the name of Jesus, to have prophesied in His name, even to have cast out devils. Jesus would say to these people that HE NEVER knew them. These people NEVER entered in through the strait gate and narrow way, they came in via another means via another theology. They were deceived.
Jesus warned...
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
The false prophets are religious imposters. They lie and deceive about the future.
Jesus is so clear in Matthew 7 about having to be a DOER of His teaching. Is a doer engaging in ongoing iniquity?
Is someone who is still engaged in ongoing iniquity who believes that are righteous "in position" and thus believes their "sins are forgiven" because they "trust in Jesus" and His "finished work on the cross" really going to enter the kingdom? Not according to the words of Jesus.
Jesus said that it is the PURE IN HEART WHO WILL SEE GOD. Immediately after stating that Jesus taught on inward defilement as the root of sin. He taught that it wasn't merely outward acts of adultery or murder which were sin but rather it was adultery and murder in the heart which was sin.
Jesus was critical of the Pharisees in regards to their heart being wicked. He likened their outward appearance of righteousness as an ornately decorated coffin full of dead men's bones. Jesus commanded the Pharisees to CLEANSE FIRST THAT WHICH IS WITHIN.
The whole point of Christianity is to CLEANSE THE HEART of all iniquity. That is why Jesus gave Himself for us. Yet theologians have so twisted the Gospel message into some "positional transaction" whereby one is "positionally clean" yet still manifestly defiled. It is an abomination and is much worse than the apostasy of Israel or even the Pharisees.
May God wake this generation up.
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How does Christ dying for a sinner when they were still in their rebellion imply that God forgives sinners when they are still in rebellion?
Why would Paul implore people to...
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
...if one is forgiven BEFORE they forsake their rebellion to God?
Skinski, just for curiosity sake - do you copy and paste your posts - either from your own material or another source, or write them from scratch every time?
Just wondering, because your posts are so much longer than mine, and mine are almost unreadable they are so long!
PS. Mine are all handwritten, unless I put a quote in, or a link! It would be nice to see your links in the original.
Just wondering, because your posts are so much longer than mine, and mine are almost unreadable they are so long!
PS. Mine are all handwritten, unless I put a quote in, or a link! It would be nice to see your links in the original.
M
Mammachickadee
Guest
Yes, a man will always sin on this earth... but as a believer the sin is not counted as unrighteousness. God commands us to live holy lives, perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works... yet he didn't take away our sinful flesh. He didn't even take away Paul's thorn in the flesh... his temptation that continually discouraged him.
The use of ALL in that verse is not a reliable witness. Some Greek manuscripts do not have it, and most bible translations do not include it.
1
1still_waters
Guest
I can do it once in a while, but it's becoming a habit, so I won't.
Folks can simply quit replying if they don't want to talk about the topic.
ok...i thought we had the option whenever
is it just due to non-resolution or conflict?
huh...learn something new every day.
mkay...exit thread.
C
cfultz3
Guest
Skinski,
You said: Where does the Scripture teach that we "possess sin"? Sin is not a thing you possess.
I reply: If we were to say that we do not have sin, then we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us.
I understand it was the way I wrote it which caused the misunderstanding.
It would seem that we are indeed in possession of sin until we are rid of these fleshly houses.
"Have", according to its definition =
G2192
ἔχω
echō
Thayer Definition:
1) to have, i.e. to hold
1a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
2) to have, i.e. own, possess
2a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.
2b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship
3) to hold one’s self or find one’s self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
4) to hold one’s self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to
4a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including an alternate form scheo, used in certain tenses only), a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 2:816, 286
Strong's G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.
You said: Where does the Scripture teach that we "possess sin"? Sin is not a thing you possess.
I reply: If we were to say that we do not have sin, then we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us.
I understand it was the way I wrote it which caused the misunderstanding.
It would seem that we are indeed in possession of sin until we are rid of these fleshly houses.
"Have", according to its definition =
G2192
ἔχω
echō
Thayer Definition:
1) to have, i.e. to hold
1a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
2) to have, i.e. own, possess
2a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.
2b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship
3) to hold one’s self or find one’s self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
4) to hold one’s self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to
4a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including an alternate form scheo, used in certain tenses only), a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 2:816, 286
Strong's G2192
ἔχω
echō
ekh'-o
A primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.
C
cfultz3
Guest
It is hard to reply to just : me in blue. It would take a lot of editing just to separate what you and I said. If you want me to reply to a certain thing, please copy and paste it so I can reply.
I
Imperfect
Guest
C
cfultz3
Guest
Everyone sins (seeing that that which is perfect has yet to come), but not every one is a sinner. I have heard it said somewhere that there are saints
A very good case of where KJV is wrong.
If you do a side by side search on Biblegateway.com, KJV is the only one that uses the word ALL.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor. 5:17 KJV
If you look at NASB, and HCSB, they have dropped the ALL but left the word THING, which is also not in the original.
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." 2 Cor. 5:17 NASB
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come." 2 Cor. 5:17. HCSB
The only version that gets the Greek right is ESV. Also this verb γέγονεν is perfect indicative active, 3rd person singular. So even the tense is wrong in KJV, NASB, and HCSB. It is not plural, which is what you need to put in English if you incorrectly put "new things". The correct translation is "the new has come." KJV the tense is imperfect in English, rather than perfect, so the entire phrase is just wrong!
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17 ESV
The Greek by the way, does not contain ALL - panta παντα, or THING, which I assume would be pragma πράγμα.
"ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις· τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονενκαινά·" 2 Cor. 5:17
[h=3][/h]Looks like Skinski's sinless perfection is starting to fall in light of really reading the Bible correctly.
