"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." - God does not love all sinners?

[jamessb]

Saints, when they are walking in the flesh, instead of walking in the Spirit are sinners.

Wrong! A person doesn't go from being an (adopted) child of God to not being a child of God. A person is a saint (meaning sanctified) even if s/he sins. S/he does not lose their status as a child of God.

Of course, there is a sin that leads to death, but that is not what is being discussed.

1 John 5:16-17, "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

 

[LenMcM]

Hebrews 12:6
King James Version
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

This verse seems to indicate that God does not love all sinners, the idea of which seemingly contradicts John 3:16. What I can deduce is that God does not love all sinners the same way, but has a different love for those who are his sons and daughters. He loves the world, but he loves his sons and daughters. I don't know if I can put it into words. I might not be right of course, but it's seemingly what these two verses when taken together indicate.

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that God loves everyone but hates sin. The second is that this verse is primarily directed at those who have been ADOPTED by Him and are the saved sons and daughters of Him, as the last 5 words of the verse indicate. ( Good parents discipline there children).

 

[jamessb]

There is a world that God loves, and there is a world that God hates.

The world that God loves is the children of his kingdom (Matt 13:38-40). His kingdom is his church, which are his sheep ((Matt 18:11-14) (Matt 25:32-34) (Luke 12:32) (John 3:16). (John 18:36)

The world that God hates: John 1:10, John 14:17, John 15:18-19, John 16:19-20, John 16:33, John 17:9, John 17:14, Rom 12:2, James 4:4, 2 Pet 1:4, 2 Pet 2:5, 1 John 2:15, 1 John 3:1 & 13,

If you only see eternal salvation in the salvation scriptures you will never understand the doctrine of Christ, and if you see only one world in the scriptures you will never understand the doctrine of Christ.

The is only one world referenced in the Bible, and you're living on it.

God loves the world that He created. John 3:16-21, " For God so loved the world [singular] that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world [singular] to condemn the [singular] world, but to save the world [singular] through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world [singular] , but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.:

Clearly, the choice is up to people, whether to believe in God or not: "people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."

"If you only see eternal salvation in the salvation scriptures you will never understand the doctrine of Christ" [wrong]
"if you see only one world in the scriptures you will never understand the doctrine of Christ" [wrong].

 

[jamessb]

first of all, the scriptures must all harmonize if we are to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine

Eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross for all of the people that God gave to his Son, it is finished, and Jesus said that he will lose none, but raise them up at the last day (John 6:37-40) Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was to redeem those that his Father gave him, from their sins, and secure them the promise of an inheritance of eternal heaven.


Hearing and believing will not save=deliver anyone eternally. It will, however, deliver those that were saved eternally, from their ignorance of the gospel, as they sojourn here on earth. (1 Tim 2:4) (Rom 10:1-3)

Eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross for all people.

 

[jamessb]

The "we" and "us" in this scripture, in order to keep it in context, are those who have passed from death to life, Verse 14.

That is not exclusive. Jesus died for everyone.

 

[jamessb]

Your interpretation of this scripture is false, because you are interpreting the wrong world. See my post #4.

The wrong world??? LOL. In the Bible there is one world: the one God created.

 

[jamessb]

A person cannot receive, nor believe, the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14) until they have been born again (Eph 2:1-5)

This is logically impossible. Every Christian believed the message of salvation before they were born again, i.e., they hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit.

 

[jamessb]

Your example of a father and his children does not compare. God loves all of his children and has secured them an inheritance in heaven. There are many in this world of iniquity that God does not love, and they are not his children.

God's sheep are his children. The biggest part of his children (Jacob/Israel=spiritual Israel) that have the promise of an eternal inheritance of Heaven are blinded from having a knowledge of the truth, and are known as the lost sheep of the house of Jacob=spiritual Israel, which include most on this forum. That is who we are to teach.

So John, when he wrote his words in chapter 3 of his gospel, was wrong?

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

 

[jamessb]

You have a lot of kind words, but you are wrong about God wanting to save the whole world of humanity. That is saying that God does not have the power to save them. God has all power, and no one can resist his will. (Dan 4:35).

Again, read John 3:16. Then tell me who is excluded from "the world".

 

[jamessb]

Well the language in Hebrews 12:6 is exclusionary about who God loves, but John 3:16 says "for God so loved the world", so I guess it makes sense to me that God loves his sons and daughters in an exclusive way, but also loves the world. Also I think you're adopted (if I put that right) as a son or daughter of God when you believe in Jesus, not when you accept Him. I don't get the whole "accept Jesus" language that is prevalent and it is troubling to me as it seems to sideline believing in the Lord.

Hebrews 12:6 addresses whom God disciplines, i.e., His adopted children. God loves the world, but not everyone is His adopted child.

You have to accept Jesus as your Savior, i.e., He died to pay for your sins. When you "believe in Jesus", you have accepted Him as your Savior.

 

[BobBridges]

Nah, not all. We all do evil, but we're promised that some of us won't get what we deserve. Anyway, "deserve" isn't the subject here, but whether God loves everyone. I was always taught that He does, and I still believe it by reflex. But I gotta admit that the Bible has a lot to about God hating some people, too.

If I let the Holy Spirit guide me in this I think—I think—that I have to conclude there are different kinds of hating and loving. He certainly loves those who surrender to Him, loved them from the beginning even while they rejected Him. The rest ... I still don't know.

 

[Magenta]

John 3:16

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Depends. What do some consider to be chastisement? All people go through trials to learn to count on God. All people have issues. All people suffer loss. All people lose those they love. All people go through similar things whether they're saved or not. So what is this idea of chastisement being defined in this thread before I can answer?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are a couple of issues here. The first is that God loves everyone but hates sin. The second is that this verse is primarily directed at those who have been ADOPTED by Him and are the saved sons and daughters of Him, as the last 5 words of the verse indicate. ( Good parents discipline there children).

It is a good idea, when discussing scripture, to reference the scripture that supports your comments, which you have not done. God does chasten those that he loves. (Heb 12:6). God does not chasten those that he does not love (Psalms 73:5 - The wicked are not divinely punished as other men). (Rom 9:13-16).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hebrews 12:6 addresses whom God disciplines, i.e., His adopted children. God loves the world, but not everyone is His adopted child.

You have to accept Jesus as your Savior, i.e., He died to pay for your sins. When you "believe in Jesus", you have accepted Him as your Savior.

Again, You are making comments without any scripture references to support your comments.

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you are to understand Christ's doctrine. Only those who have been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will accept Jesus as their Savior. (1 Cor 2:14). (Eph 2:1-5).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nah, not all. We all do evil, but we're promised that some of us won't get what we deserve. Anyway, "deserve" isn't the subject here, but whether God loves everyone. I was always taught that He does, and I still believe it by reflex. But I gotta admit that the Bible has a lot to about God hating some people, too.

If I let the Holy Spirit guide me in this I think—I think—that I have to conclude there are different kinds of hating and loving. He certainly loves those who surrender to Him, loved them from the beginning even while they rejected Him. The rest ... I still don't know.

I commend you for your desire to know the truth of the scriptures. The Holy Spirit that dwells within you, in that you have shown, by your desire to seek the truth, that you have been born again spiritually, which assures you that you have an inheritance of eternal heaven. No one can take that away from you, whether you are able to see and understand it fully. If the Holy Spirit, within you, guides your understanding to know the truth, it will not be the cause of your eternal security, but it will enable you to live a happy and joyful life as you sojourn here on earth. May God bless you in your studies.

 

[jamessb]

Again, You are making comments without any scripture references to support your comments.

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you are to understand Christ's doctrine. Only those who have been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will accept Jesus as their Savior. (1 Cor 2:14). (Eph 2:1-5).

I have posted many times on this issue and have no desire to repeat what I have already written.

Regarding your post... "Only those who have been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will accept Jesus as their Savior" is backwards. When a person accepts Jesus as their Savior then, and only then, do they receive the Holy Spirit.

You cited 1 Corinthians 2:14. Have you even read it??? Here is what it says: "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."