Foreknowledge: Foreordination is "According to Foreknowledge"

[Elin]

But Elin, "purpose" is an empty word! The (inscrutable?) content of the purpose is the question.

It's not my question, which is "What does God's foreknowledge mean, and how does it work?"

When God chose Tom, but not Dick, assuming it was not to prove that He could arbitrarily make a capricious choice,
we still are left scratching the head as to the purpose.

I don't need to know his purpose, I just need to know what God's foreknowledge means and how it works.

"And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— for the children [italics! = the nations? -- 2 nations are in thy womb] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

This election is not about salvation,

But the discussion also addresses salvation (Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33).

but privilege in the world. We may also ask if Esau ever served Jacob? Is that in the Bible?
If we made this the nation of Esau served the nation of Jacob, that would be easy to prove.

Why wouldn't you believe that is what is meant?

And Rom 9 does not use the word "foreknowledge" there. Instead of elect according to foreknowledge, it is "purpose according to election." I guess you want to make foreknowledge = foreknowledge of a purpose

No, I want to make choice (elect) = foreknowledge of a purpose,
choice (elect) according to foreknowledge of his purpose.

And we still don't know what the purpose was; and if foreknowledge is knowledge of an unknown purpose,
we still are in the dark.

I don't need to know his purpose, so I am not still in the dark about what I need to know regarding God's foreknowledge.

 

[Elin]

But the foreknowledge is not just of his purpose of having a prophet; the foreknowledge is of a specific person, namely Jeremiah.

There was no person Jeremiah when God made his choice (election) to accomplish his foreknown purpose, all before the foundations of the world.

 

[Hoffco]

There was no person Jeremiah when God made his choice (election) to accomplish his foreknown purpose, all before the foundations of the world.

Elin, In the MIND of GOD you existed before time, we all existed, before TIME, in the mind of GOD, and Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life ,before we existed. You should NOT say, there was no Jeremiah, as if, God didn't know, LOVE, Jeremiah, before the world was made. We all, elect and non-elect, were in the mind of God from all eternity. Love Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

There was no person Jeremiah when God made his choice (election) to accomplish his foreknown purpose, all before the foundations of the world.

Nevertheless, God knew the person Jeremiah before Jeremiah was born. God is omniscient. Can God have an intimate relationship with a person before he is born?

 

[Atwood]

I don't need to know his purpose, I just need to know what God's foreknowledge means and how it works. . . .

I don't need to know his purpose, so I am not still in the dark about what I need to know regarding God's foreknowledge.

Need to know.
Hum. Perhaps the thing is want to know. Or we could ask,
God need for us to know? If one has a very intimate friend, one might have a need to tell them what one was undertaking, one's purposes. The existence of a friendship leads to certain spiritual/psychological needs.

Gen. 18:16
. . . Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham that which I do; 18 seeing that Abraham had surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."


7 Didst not thou, O our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and give it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?


Is. 41:8
But thou, Israel, my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend, 9 thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called from the corners thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away; 10 fear thou not, for I am with thee; 3be not dismayed, for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


James 2:
11And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; 12and he was called the friend of God.


11 And Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

I expect that eventually revealing to us His purposes is going to bring God joy.
---------------

Pardon me for digressing:
The heart of God desires friends; men of God. It is His purpose to have friends. He desires friendship with the believer; in fact He desires that we abide in [fellowship with] Christ.

Should it not grip us how very much He wants our friendship.

 

[Atwood]

I don't need to know his purpose, I just need to know what God's foreknowledge means and how it works.

Here is a passage which contains both God's election and friends; the friend knowing what His Lord does, which would imply knowing purposes. I think the emphasis is on God wanting His friends to know His purposes. Could we say that God needs for us to know His purposes?

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. 16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye may love one another.

 

[Hoffco]

God's purpose is very clear, to save some and to damn others. Rom. 9:21-24 "...What if God,wanting to show His wrath...endured...vessels of wrath... and... vessels of mercy...prepared for glory...us whom He called..." God's purpose is to show LOVE and WRATH, to gain glory for Himself. Very simple, Love Hoffco

 

[Flamingspirit]

God's purpose is very clear, to save some and to damn others. Rom. 9:21-24 "...What if God,wanting to show His wrath...endured...vessels of wrath... and... vessels of mercy...prepared for glory...us whom He called..." God's purpose is to show LOVE and WRATH, to gain glory for Himself. Very simple, Love Hoffco

This is not true! God's will is to save all. The verse you quote shows how God acts in vessels of mercy or wrath. We would not know Gods wrath if not for the vessels assigned to deliver it.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Some animals are designed to be unclean for the purpose of cleaning the waste of the earth or the sea. So it's with man as well.

 

[Elin]

Here is a passage which contains both God's election and friends; the friend knowing what His Lord does, which would imply knowing purposes.
I think the emphasis is on God wanting His friends to know His purposes.

We know God's purpose in everything--to glorify himself through his Son.

His Son created all things.
His Son redeemed all things.
His Son judges all things.
His Son rules over all things from his Father's right hand.
All things have been committed to the Son, to the glory of the Father.

Could we say that God needs for us to know His purposes?

Yes, God wants us to know his purposes,
to glorify his mercy in the salvation of those who believe, and
to glorify his justice in the condemnation of those who do not believe.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. 16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye may love one another.

I understand what you are saying.

And Jesus revealed what the Lord does in the NT.
So we do know them.

 

[Elin]

Elin, In the MIND of GOD you existed before time, we all existed, before TIME, in the mind of GOD, and Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life ,before we existed. You should NOT say, there was no Jeremiah, as if, God didn't know, LOVE, Jeremiah, before the world was made. We all, elect and non-elect, were in the mind of God from all eternity. Love Hoffco

We are agreed.

 

[Elin]

Need to know.
Hum. Perhaps the thing is want to know. Or we could ask,
God need for us to know? If one has a very intimate friend, one might have a need to tell them what one was undertaking, one's purposes. The existence of a friendship leads to certain spiritual/psychological needs.
Gen. 18:16
. . . Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham that which I do; 18 seeing that Abraham had surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

7 Didst not thou, O our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and give it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Is. 41:8
But thou, Israel, my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend, 9 thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called from the corners thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away; 10 fear thou not, for I am with thee; 3be not dismayed, for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

James 2:
11And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; 12and he was called the friend of God.

11 And Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

I expect that eventually revealing to us His purposes is going to bring God joy.
---------------
Pardon me for digressing:
The heart of God desires friends; men of God. It is His purpose to have friends. He desires friendship with the believer; in fact He desires that we abide in [fellowship with] Christ.

Should it not grip us how very much He wants our friendship.

Yes, but we have no Biblical warrant for anthropormorphizing its meaning.

It's about covenant relationship.
"Friendship" is the Biblical description of those in covenant relationship with God.

Because Abraham was God's covenant friend,
he revealed his purpose for Abraham (Ge 18:10),
and for the wicked of the plain (Ge 18:20-21), redemption and judgment.

God reveals the same to his covenant friends of the NT,
his purpose of salvation for those who believe,
and his purpose of judgment for those who do not believe.

Friendship is not about God letting us in on his secret counsels (Dt 29:29; Ro 11:33-34),
which we couldn't understand anyway (Ro 11:33).

 

[Elin]

Nevertheless, God knew the person Jeremiah before Jeremiah was born. God is omniscient.
Can God have an intimate relationship with a person before he is born?

Can God made a square circle, or a circular square?

 

[Dan58]

Can God make a square circle, or a circular square?

Yes, I believe He can.. If you look at the side-view of a cylinder straight-on in one dimension, it can appear square even though its round. If you draw a square and spin it rapidly, it will appear to be a circle. If a solid square object made of a flexible material is spun, the sides could expand outward, literally taking the shape of a circle.

Considering that God is in a completely different dimension where senses and laws may be incomprehensible to us, I suspect God can do things that we can't fathom in our physical world. Jesus walked on water, and God made woman out of man, so circles into squares might be elementary?

 

[Elin]

Yes, I believe He can.. If you look at the side-view of a cylinder straight-on in one dimension,
it can appear square even though its round. If you draw a square and spin it rapidly,
it will appear to be a circle. If a solid square object made of a flexible material is spun, the sides could expand outward,
literally taking the shape of a circle.

Considering that God is in a completely different dimension where senses and laws may be incomprehensible to us, I suspect God can do things that we can't fathom in our physical world. Jesus walked on water, and God made woman out of man, so circles into squares might be elementary?

God must be true to his nature, or he is not God.
Walking on water, and making woman from man is not contrary to the nature of God.

However, lying is contrary to his nature of Truth and, therefore, he cannot lie
and remain to be Truth, and so in lying he would cease to be God,
and we wouldn't be having this discussion about God who is not God.

Likewise, he cannot do the absurd, which is contrary to his nature of Truth.
A square circle, or a circular square is absurd.

And appearances do not constitute reality.

 

[Elin]

Here is a passage which contains both God's election and friends; the friend knowing what His Lord does, which would imply knowing purposes. I think the emphasis is on
God wanting His friends to know His purposes.
Could we say that God needs for us to know His purposes?

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. 16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye may love one another.

The Compelling Purpose of God ~ Oswald Chambers ~ August 3

"In the natural life our ambitions are our own, but in the Christian life we have no goals of our own.

We talk so much today about our decisions for Christ, our determination to be Christians, and our decisions for this and that, but in the New Testament the only aspect that is brought out is the compelling purpose of God. “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .” (John 15:16).

We are not taken into a conscious agreement with God’s purpose— we are taken into God’s purpose with no awareness of it at all. We have no idea what God’s goal may be; as we continue, His purpose becomes even more and more vague. God’s aim appears to have missed the mark, because we are too nearsighted to see the target at which He is aiming.

At the beginning of the Christian life, we have our own ideas as to what God’s purpose is. We say, “God means for me to go over there,” and, “God has called me to do this special work.” We do what we think is right, and yet the compelling purpose of God remains upon us. The work we do is of no account when compared with the compelling purpose of God. It is simply the scaffolding surrounding His work and His plan. “He took the twelve aside . . .” (Luke 18:31). God takes us aside all the time. We have not yet understood all there is to know of the compelling purpose of God.

 

[Dan58]

God must be true to his nature, or he is not God.
Walking on water, and making woman from man is not contrary to the nature of God.

Likewise, he cannot do the absurd, which is contrary to his nature of Truth.
A square circle, or a circular square is absurd.

And appearances do not constitute reality.

Your correct in that a circle is a circle and a square is a square. I may have misunderstood the parameters of the question, where "appear" wasn't implied. God of course can change a circle into a square, just as He makes a chameleon change color, but what He creates is as He created it, otherwise as you stated, its a lie. However, walking on water requires defying gravity, some might call that contrary to His nature or "absurd"? We know that with God all things are possible, He can make a circle and He can make a square, but making a square circle is contrary to both. That's one of those teaser questions that's incomprehensible, where you try to think, but nothing happens

 

[Elin]

Your correct in that a circle is a circle and a square is a square. I may have misunderstood the parameters of the question, where "appear" wasn't implied. God of course can change a circle into a square, just as He makes a chameleon change color, but what He creates is as He created it, otherwise as you stated, its a lie. However,
walking on water requires defying gravity, some might call that contrary to His nature or "absurd"? We know that with God all things are possible, He can make a circle and He can make a square, but making a square circle is contrary to both. That's one of those teaser questions that's incomprehensible, where you try to think, but nothing happens

Walking on water is neither contrary to his nature nor absurd, based on the meaning of his nature, and on the meaning of absurd.

I like your "where you think, but nothing happens."
Good description of absurd.