Forgive me if this sounds blasphemous but.....

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hello. Tintin, why do you think that. I am just wondering and I'm just sitting here thinking, if He had the ability to sin, how is it that He didn't, especially as a child/young person living under the law system. What do you mean by He "had the ability", thx.

Jesus learned to be obedient by the things that he suffered. He is the example of what man can be, who man can be if they are completely led by the word of God/Spirit of God. He had to fully taste humanity (yet without sin) in order to be the perfect, only mediator between God and man. He was/is all God, disrobed his Glory and took upon him the form of a servant. A good scripture is the one about Him having milk and honey that he might learn to choose the good over the bad. Another reason is that he was given the spirit without measure as we are. Being 100 percent led by the spirit and 100 percent submissive to the word of God allowed him to be the perfect man and in essence the perfect embodiment of sin (for us) and when he took our sin upon himself, while being completely sinless himself.
 
This isn't too popular a concept because of what our Christian tradition says (i.e. that Christ was born perfect), but scripture can't be broken. Yes, Christ was perfected by what all he suffered through.

---

Such a concept (of Christ being perfected) seems contradictory because of (what I feel) is an equally incorrect tradition Christians subscribe to; that of "inheriting Original Sin from Adam". I don't think "Christ being perfected" is contradictory at all.

I don't know how the majority of CC members feel about this issues, but from Christians I've talked to in person, many believe that all people are "born sinful" because of Adam's sin, when instead scripture says we are "born in corruptible flesh" because of Adam's sin...and that corruptible flesh compels us to sin. But the former is what many Christians believe. However, "Original Sin" is another doctrine passed down to the rest of the Church from Roman Catholicism.

Sin is not a "condition" but an action (i.e. the act of disobeying God), while our corruptible flesh is the "condition" we've inherited from Adam. By this reasoning, I believe all are born sinless (i.e. we haven't yet been disobedient), but all - except one - have sinned (i.e. have disobeyed God), and that exception is Christ. The rest of us have succumbed to the desires of our corruptible flesh at some point in our lives and have sinned (i.e. have disobeyed God) as a result.

So ALL have the ability to disobey God (i.e. sin) including Christ (else Christ's temptation would've been pointless like HeRose says), and ALL are compelled to sin (because this flesh is at war with God), but only Christ resisted this flesh and showed he loved God enough to remain obedient to him (i.e. not sin) all of his life.

Only when Christ died could it finally be said that he "lived a perfect life...all of his life"; only when Christ died could it finally be said that "he was/is perfect, in obedience".

IMO the mistake that many people make is to focus on sin instead of a sinful nature. The fact that we have a sinful nature is indisputable. The first Adam has to die for a reason. It is corrupt; it can never be made right; it must die. The last Adam is our only hope. He is the resurrection and life.

I tend to believe that GOD is not so much concerned about our acts of sin as he is our denial of our sinful nature. We all commit acts of sin; and I'm not trying to imply that GOD is pleased with such, because he is not. But IMO he is far more concerned about our denial of our sinful nature than he is about our individual acts of sin. Because by denying our sinful nature we imply that we are inherently righteous. That is abomination to GOD, and keeps us from receiving the righteousness through the spirit that enables us to see and do righteous acts.
 
Not that I don't agree with you but for the same token any man, being born again through the Holy Spirit, would be able to live a perfect life in obedience, correct? If not, why not?

Well I personally believe that's where true salvation from this flesh is found, in dying to one's own spirit and letting Christ's most Holy Spirit do what he once did 2000 years ago; resist this flesh of Adam and live in obedience to God. Only he could do it then, and only he can do it now. We just have to learn how to get out of the way (i.e. die). And until that goal is reached, we also have God's grace for when we do stumble.
 
IMO the mistake that many people make is to focus on sin instead of a sinful nature. The fact that we have a sinful nature is indisputable. The first Adam has to die for a reason. It is corrupt; it can never be made right; it must die. The last Adam is our only hope. He is the resurrection and life.

I tend to believe that GOD is not so much concerned about our acts of sin as he is our denial of our sinful nature. We all commit acts of sin; and I'm not trying to imply that GOD is pleased with such, because he is not. But IMO he is far more concerned about our denial of our sinful nature than he is about our individual acts of sin. Because by denying our sinful nature we imply that we are inherently righteous. That is abomination to GOD, and keeps us from receiving the righteousness through the spirit that enables us to see and do righteous acts.

No, that's fair. Yeah I can understand where you're coming from...I once had a HUGE discussion with another person on another forum about which "nature" we inherit from Adam. Let me just say for the record that 'if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us' (1 John 1:8), because 'it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one' (Romans 3:10), so yeah all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

But at least to share where I'm coming from in that post; Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

Broken into it's pieces...

1. Adam sinned.

2. Sin (disobedience, which never existed in the world until Adam) now exists in the world because of him.

3. Death [a condition] entered the world through sin [Adam's disobedience].

4. Death was passed to all people (because all were seeds in Adam when he sinned and Adam's body must die).

5. Because all sinned [an action] (in Adam).


Then I follow that up with 1 Corinthians 15 especially verse 56:
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

So for this verse, I imagine death as a scorpion chasing me daily (or that this scorpion is on my back)...and when it stings me I sin. So death compels me to sin. This is what I also call the "corruptible flesh" (i.e. "mortal" flesh).

1. Adam sins

2. Adam's body must die

3. Thus we are born with death on us (because of Adam's sin).

4. That death compels us to sin (stinging us).

5. Our sin then deserves the judgement of death (the wage of sin).

6. It's a vicious cycle...of sin = death = sin = death...until Christ saved us from "sin = death" (Romans 8:2), freeing us from this law. Sin no longer equals death because of God's grace & the cross.

7. We also receive the gift of Christ's Holy Spirit; the only Spirit powerful enough to overcome the scorpion (death) so that (eventually) we no longer suffer from its sting (to sin).

8. And when Christ comes, the scorpion (death) will finally be defeated for good.

Scripture does't say (or at least I haven't found where it says) that sin passed to all people from Adam, but that death did...and because of death we sin. Of course I haven't gone through *all* of scripture just yet, or maybe I've overlooked passages I've previously gone over (and feel free to post passages I may have overlooked), but this is where I'm coming from at least.
 
Temptation has lost its meaning, the meanings in the Bible for some time have been changed

Get a free computer Bible, it works on apple also...
e-sword.net
or theword.net
and install it and highlight the words, you will understand the maenings of verses much better.

Jesus was tempted to sin, to sanctify himself(go look that up also, churches don't teach that anymore, very few people know what it means
it is your salvation
you should find out what sanctification means.

to the point...

To tempt someone is to TRY AND GET THEM TO SIN

So Jesus went into the desert to let satan try and get him to sin

he failed

the reason for it?
the liar demon has always said no one can keep the law!
(sound familiar? He preaches in many churches!)

But Jesus said, Everyone has to keep the law or they annot go to heaven!

and satan said "you'll never be able to resist my temptations!"

and Jesus prayed
and he resisted sinning every time.

So Devil 0,
Jesus won

whats this all about? to show you even when starving to death and weak, the devil cannot make you sin and there is no excuse for sinning, you only sin because you want to sin...

But
if you are serious
and give your life to Jesus and tell him
I want to be like Jesus
he comes in and dwells in your heart
and you have love for him
He gives you the holy spirit
recreates your heart to be strong and firm
supports your conscience
makes whatever new brain cells he needs for you
and you can say no

to stop sinning all you need to do is say no.
that is it
and Jesus gives you the power to say no

You are starving and going to die
why dont you crate some bread?
No.

that easy
and satan runs like a chicken.

Juest pray so, and just say no.
victory over every sin.

Jesus proved you can keep the law
he kept commandment number #1
God told him to go fast
and the devil tried to get him to break what God told him
and Jesus said no
and the devil ran.

simple
Everyone can keep the commandments if the have Barak creative infinite power of God.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I just wanna know....(don't think of chewing my neck off or anything)

Um...well after his baptism, Jesus was accompanied to the wilderness where He was TEMPTED for 40 days and nights. Tempted by Satan that is...but we also know that Jesus was perfect and BORN without sin. But if He was born perfect then what was the point of the temptation...

Here is my main question, from the stated facts, I would like to know...did Jesus Christ have the ABILITY to sin? (putting in perspective that He had to be tried and tempted first before officially beginning His ministry)...
Jesus was tempted in all points like us ,If he could not have sinned like you say it would be pointless. I believe Jesus could have sinned. It says he learned obedience through the things he suffered and became perfect. Jesus was perfect , but when a new task was set before him he had to continue to be perfect and resist temptation. I don't think people realize what was really at stake when Jesus came to earth. the father trusted him with the whole plan of salvation which could have been losted. and Satan would have won .Praise Jesus for his unwavering faithfulness to the Father, and the Father s love for his son that believes all things .....Perfect Love
 
LovePink, I get that understanding from reading the Bible. My views are very similar to some that have posted here.
 
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh now jesus is holy and perfect from the very beginning he said I Am Alpha and Omega THE BEGINING AND THE END he was tempted to show us a lesson a true one that we must obey God and be perfect before him now this by our own discipline is impossible but in the prayer of the holy Ghost we can do all things and of course being also well instructed in the word the gift of the Holy Ghost needs to be embrassed to be edified but proper discernment and knowledge of scriptures must be applied in our daily lives ,
 
Last edited:
Jesus was tempted in all points like us ,If he could not have sinned like you say it would be pointless. I believe Jesus could have sinned. It says he learned obedience through the things he suffered and became perfect. Jesus was perfect , but when a new task was set before him he had to continue to be perfect and resist temptation. I don't think people realize what was really at stake when Jesus came to earth. the father trusted him with the whole plan of salvation which could have been losted. and Satan would have won .Praise Jesus for his unwavering faithfulness to the Father, and the Father s love for his son that believes all things .....Perfect Love
You are in error you person I'll pray for yoy
 
I'm in favour of the impeccability of Christ and I don't think that makes His temptations illegitimate. He experienced genuine intense temptations in His humanity thus can understand our weaknesses, however He also had a divine nature (Jesus was fully God and fully man) thus was unable to yield to temptation. Christ having the ability to sin violates His divinity. It implies that God could act contrary to His holiness.
 
LovePink, I get that understanding from reading the Bible. My views are very similar to some that have posted here.

Ok, thx. I think His perfecting was in the inward man, building in stature(Lk 2:52) unto maturity. I understand Christ to share in two natures for a reason, also flesh & blood and flesh & bone. In Paul's epistles he speaks of the saints as perfect or perfecting & "obedience to faith"- both Christ & the inward man of the new creature cannot sin, they do not have the ability. I was thinking earlier, this is evident of Christ by John the baptists reaction when Christ came to be water baptized.
 
I just wanna know....(don't think of chewing my neck off or anything)

Um...well after his baptism, Jesus was accompanied to the wilderness where He was TEMPTED for 40 days and nights. Tempted by Satan that is...but we also know that Jesus was perfect and BORN without sin. But if He was born perfect then what was the point of the temptation...

Here is my main question, from the stated facts, I would like to know...did Jesus Christ have the ABILITY to sin? (putting in perspective that He had to be tried and tempted first before officially beginning His ministry)...

Matthew 4

4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

The Messiah fasted for forty days, and was then tempted while hungry.

We all know how the body reacts to hunger in a short space of time we become cranky and can not concentrate..
 
Matthew 4



The Messiah fasted for forty days, and was then tempted while hungry.

We all know how the body reacts to hunger in a short space of time we become cranky and can not concentrate..
He also would of stopped pooing by day 20...thats gotta be tough
 
I'm in favour of the impeccability of Christ and I don't think that makes His temptations illegitimate. He experienced genuine intense temptations in His humanity thus can understand our weaknesses, however He also had a divine nature (Jesus was fully God and fully man) thus was unable to yield to temptation. Christ having the ability to sin violates His divinity. It implies that God could act contrary to His holiness.
Then you along with many others on this board, deny scripture Hbr 2:17 Hbr 4:15. You deny the truth that Christ was in every way like a man, for the sake of your unscriptural, unbiblical, "God the Son come down from heaven in human form" doctrine.

Act 14:11 "When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!”
 
Then you along with many others on this board, deny scripture Hbr 2:17 Hbr 4:15. You deny the truth that Christ was in every way like a man, for the sake of your unscriptural, unbiblical, "God the Son come down from heaven in human form" doctrine.

Act 14:11 "When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!”
Jesus was not merely human. Like every man He experienced human appetites and emotions, temptability, except evil desires or ability to sin because He was also God (Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 1:23, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16) and God cannot sin. If He had just a human nature then there definitely was a possibility of Him sinning just like the first Adam thus putting God's sovereign redemptive plan at stake. Unlike you, I acknowledge the hypostatic union – Jesus having two inseparable natures (divine and human), which is clearly revealed throughout the scripture.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 
I just wanna know....(don't think of chewing my neck off or anything)

Um...well after his baptism, Jesus was accompanied to the wilderness where He was TEMPTED for 40 days and nights. Tempted by Satan that is...but we also know that Jesus was perfect and BORN without sin. But if He was born perfect then what was the point of the temptation...

Here is my main question, from the stated facts, I would like to know...did Jesus Christ have the ABILITY to sin? (putting in perspective that He had to be tried and tempted first before officially beginning His ministry)...

Exodus 16:4
Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.

Exodus 20:20
Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Exodus 17:2
So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the Lord to the test?”

Matthew 10:24
“The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
 
Well I personally believe that's where true salvation from this flesh is found, in dying to one's own spirit and letting Christ's most Holy Spirit do what he once did 2000 years ago; resist this flesh of Adam and live in obedience to God. Only he could do it then, and only he can do it now. We just have to learn how to get out of the way (i.e. die). And until that goal is reached, we also have God's grace for when we do stumble.
Then why only he can do it now?
Paul said: I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
James said: get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word plant in you, which can save you.
Peter said: But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.
The Hebrew writer said: Without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Yeshua says: You are to be perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect.
Are these sayings not meant for us to resist this flesh of Adam and live in obedience to God 100% just as Yeshua did?
 
I just wanna know....(don't think of chewing my neck off or anything)

Um...well after his baptism, Jesus was accompanied to the wilderness where He was TEMPTED for 40 days and nights. Tempted by Satan that is...but we also know that Jesus was perfect and BORN without sin. But if He was born perfect then what was the point of the temptation...

Here is my main question, from the stated facts, I would like to know...did Jesus Christ have the ABILITY to sin? (putting in perspective that He had to be tried and tempted first before officially beginning His ministry)...

Christ did not find anything tempting, though Satan did try to temp Him . Christ as you can all read, did Not find Satan tempting at all.


Christ is perfect.


James 1:13



Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 
Last edited:
Then why only he can do it now?
Paul said: I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
James said: get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word plant in you, which can save you.
Peter said: But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.
The Hebrew writer said: Without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Yeshua says: You are to be perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect.
Are these sayings not meant for us to resist this flesh of Adam and live in obedience to God 100% just as Yeshua did?

Truly all of the things you've mentioned are meant for *us* to resist the flesh...but the only power that allows *us* to do that is Christ's Holy Spirit. Now when I say "only he can could do it then, and only he can do it now", what I'm actually saying is "if you are still *you*, you will have no power to accomplish the task of resisting the flesh. Your spirit (i.e. your 1st life) isn't strong enough. But if you die to self (i.e. you no longer live but Christ - instead - lives in you), it is Christ's Spirit (your 2nd life) now powering your body and Christ has (and can) resist this flesh."

Notice your passage of Paul says "I can do all things *through Christ* who gives me strength". Or when he says "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."(Galatians 2:20) In other words, Paul is saying he's dead...there was no more "Paul, of the family of ___...of Adam". This wasn't just Paul's poetic way of saying he's a follower of Christ. Paul truly believed - without visible proof on the outside (i.e. he had "faith") - that he personally didn't exist anymore; that his life ended with Christ at the cross, and that he's now merely a fleshly temple of God's Holy Spirit; the same exact fleshly temple that God had 2000 years ago. And this is exactly what Christ explains to Nicodemus in John 3: the process of "being again (from above)"; that "only the 'son of man' (Christ) can go to heaven" because only Christ came down from heaven. You can't go to heaven. I can't go to heaven. Only Christ can.

The first life ***MUST*** end so that the second life - Christ's life - can enter in and live instead.

Christ said "unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a *single* seed. But if it dies, it produces *many* seeds." (John 12:24) God sowed his seed (Christ) into the ground...so there's only one crop God's looking to reap. He's not looking to reap my life at the end of days...he's looking to reap Christ's life. He's not looking to reap your life at the end of days...he's looking to reap Christ's life. Yours and my life must die because it's from Adam, and Adam must be judged in death. We were born of the will of man, while there was only one born of God; Christ (John 1:13)...and only one born of God can return to God.


Matthew 10:39
If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it
John 12:25
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

What I'm trying to explain (that my word may be failing at) is the mystery of God; "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27)...not "you and Christ in you", but "Christ in you". Notice in Daniel 7:13-14 the after the 4 beasts emerge that the son of man ascends to heaven and receive his dominion. We know this is Christ...but note who the angel explains this 'one like the son of man' is in his summary in Daniel 7:15-18

18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Also note why the voice of Christ in Revelation 1:15 sounds like the rushing of many waters. When crowds of people speak in unison it sounds like a rushing river. This is a vision of the body of Christ; the saints; the Messiah in his living temple. Only Christ can resist this flesh, so we must die and let him.

This is why I wrote this post encouraging members to ask themselves a few questions each day to make sure they're dying to self and truly born again, in order to start transforming by renewing their minds to the image of Christ.
 
Do a word study on tempted in the four gospels, "they tempted Him" the tempters tempted. God cannot be tempted in Himself, He is holy.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:



The flesh is not corrupt, but corruption is in the body of death born after the likeness and image of Adam.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image;*

" Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."


Christ "knew no sin" meaning the nature of sin. God does not share in this nature, He cannot, He is righteous & holy.

21*For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


This is also the case for the new creature, the identity of the new man. There is something else to consider, "sin is condemned in the flesh"
Nice one :)