Free will in the light of Romans 11:25?

[JohnRH]

If all have equal opportunity...then what is this??

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Maybe you're making more out of "blindness in part" than the text actually does?
God has not cast away Israel, vv. 1&2.
The Israelites have not stumbled that they should fall, vs. 11.
The "fullness of the Gentiles" serves to make mercy obtainable to the Isrealites, vs. 31.

 

[garee]

Maybe you're making more out of "blindness in part" than the text actually does?
God has not cast away Israel, vv. 1&2.
The Israelites have not stumbled that they should fall, vs. 11.
The "fullness of the Gentiles" serves to make mercy obtainable to the Isrealites, vs. 31.

The Jewish nation used to represent belief and unbelief no faith. Came form the Amorite and Hittite nations that apposed Israel. Abraham's mother and father. two nations to form one. Two being the witness of God .Two become one .

All Israel. . . a word meaning those who wrestle with flesh and blood (mankind) and with God not seen working in them as the overcomers, born again of the Spirit of Christ they are as new creatures the bride of Christ.

As of the first century reformation God is no longer uses the flesh of a outward Jew to represent belief and unbelief the shadows became sight. Outward Jews come under the same heading of any nation. .as a gentiles ( pagan).


When the fulness of gentiles as pagan sinners redeemed come in it will be the last day then those who do have the Spirit of Christ will rise and receive it... its never about the corrupted flesh and blood of any nation...God holds all in unbelief (no faith)

 

[oldethennew]

Indisputable, and agreed 100%. I also just wanted to say hi brother, it's always great to "see" you. It would be awesome to meet one day, If He ever wills it, it would be really cool. Have a blessed day man, in Jesus name. [/QUOTE
=================================
Hey Jim,
it's really nice to "see" you also Brother, we're pretty confident that a meeting is scheduled in our future!!!
my wife and I love and pray for you and yours -
may you always be well and blessed in Christ's Holy Name...

 

[crossnote]

Maybe you're making more out of "blindness in part" than the text actually does?

That's what you all are here for.

God has not cast away Israel, vv. 1&2.

Correct, He reserves to Himself a remnant. v.5

The Israelites have not stumbled that they should fall, vs. 11.

Yes, it is a stumbling, not a fall, but that does not preclude a 'hardness/blindness' to come upon them.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" serves to make mercy obtainable to the Isrealites, vs. 31.

And that will be in the near future, but for now the issue at hand is if 'free will' is such an iron clad dictum, what is this hardness / blindness going on presently with Israel?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe you're making more out of "blindness in part" than the text actually does?

Right. There comes a point when a point should not be extended beyond its legitimate role. God has not taken away anyone's free will. Also wilful blindness exists among both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[crossnote]

Right. There comes a point when a point should not be extended beyond its legitimate role. God has not taken away anyone's free will. Also wilful blindness exists among both Jews and Gentiles.

Then why doesn't the text speak along these lines?...
Romans 11:25 NASB
[25] For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel [AND the Gebtiles] until...

There is something going on here that is deeper than 'freewill".

 

[dcontroversal]

I suppose I could make a case where the Gentiles also blew it back in Noah's day, but were not treated with blindness and givena hardened heart. And we could agree with Paul, that God concluded both Jew and Gentile under sin that He may have mercy on both (Rom 3). It's just this present hardening that is well...a mystery, vs.25.

Amen.....what about the wicked going astray from the womb......what chance did they have?

or....

Many are called, but few chosen

MANY called does not equal all called
FEW chosen of the MANY called is far less that ALL......

MANY cans-o-worms when it comes to free will and or predestination......I have always said there is a balance to be struck with probably a little truth from all camps involved in this debate.........

Concerning the JEWS....LET his blood be upon us and our children......GOD gave them exactly what they asked for!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is something going on here that is deeper than 'freewill".

I already referred you to 2 Corinthians 3, which has the answer. Until Jews seek Christ in the Old Testament there is a partial hardening. But when the turn to the Lord in the OT, the veil is removed.

 

[garee]

I already referred you to 2 Corinthians 3, which has the answer. Until Jews seek Christ in the Old Testament there is a partial hardening. But when the turn to the Lord in the OT, the veil is removed.

Most Jews are still seeking for the veil to be rent inspect to their own ideas "flesh and blood" the promise was to come once in the flesh.

They have no interest in the gospel that saves gentiles . They are still trying to understand what happened as the time of reformation...

They stand in the same place as a gentile/heathen natural man "no faith"

 

[crossnote]

I already referred you to 2 Corinthians 3, which has the answer. Until Jews seek Christ in the Old Testament there is a partial hardening. But when the turn to the Lord in the OT, the veil is removed.

Again, why just the Jews get the partial hardening in light of 'freewill'? Why didn't the Gentiles receive the same partial hardening? (I'm asking only for the sake of discussion...not contention).

 

[garee]

Again, why just the Jews get the partial hardening in light of 'freewill'? Why didn't the Gentiles receive the same partial hardening? (I'm asking only for the sake of discussion...not contention).

All Israel are not born again believers. Just as the difference between and outward Jew in respect to the flesh and one as a believer in respect to a inward born again person.

Not sure why you use free will? Its in light of the gospel the will of God. It is God who does soften a persons heart that is in bondage to do the will of the god of this world. He performs that which he appoints to us.. . . . a imputed righteousness having nothing to do with ethnicity.

Mankind was created to do the will of another. Never as a free will agent.

In that sense, we can speak of the olive tree as “the Israel of God,” as Paul elsewhere refers to the community of Jews and Gentiles who follow Christ by this name .

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Salvation has nothing to s do with the flesh of any nation. The Jews were used in various parables as types and shadows to teach how to believe (faith) and recognize unbelief (no faith ) representing mankind as a whole. When a person begins glorying in the flesh of a nation .The gospel has lost its effect having become subject to do the will of this world a will in bondage ..

 

[JohnRH]

Again, why just the Jews get the partial hardening in light of 'freewill'? Why didn't the Gentiles receive the same partial hardening? (I'm asking only for the sake of discussion...not contention).

They did. Chapter 1:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleannes ...
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections ...
God gave them over to a reprobate mind ...
Chapter 11 (9-11 actually) just happens to be focusing on Israel and God's use of them for redemptive history.

 

[crossnote]

All Israel are not born again believers. Just as the difference between and outward Jew in respect to the flesh and one as a believer in respect to a inward born again person.

Not sure why you use free will? Its in light of the gospel the will of God. It is God who does soften a persons heart that is in bondage to do the will of the god of this world. He performs that which he appoints to us.. . . . a imputed righteousness having nothing to do with ethnicity.

Mankind was created to do the will of another. Never as a free will agent.

In that sense, we can speak of the olive tree as “the Israel of God,” as Paul elsewhere refers to the community of Jews and Gentiles who follow Christ by this name .

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Salvation has nothing to s do with the flesh of any nation. The Jews were used in various parables as types and shadows to teach how to believe (faith) and recognize unbelief (no faith ) representing mankind as a whole. When a person begins glorying in the flesh of a nation .The gospel has lost its effect having become subject to do the will of this world a will in bondage ..

I can see that you despise the fact that God has a favored nation, but that isn't the topic.

Not sure why you use free will? Its in light of the gospel the will of God. It is God who does soften a persons heart that is in bondage to do the will of the god of this world. He performs that which he appoints to us.. . . . a imputed righteousness having nothing to do with ethnicity.

God softens a heart, true, and if you carefully read Romans 11 you'll see that God sets aside a whole nation (Israel) temporarily and partially hardens their hearts. Why is that in the light of 'freewill'?

In that sense, we can speak of the olive tree as “the Israel of God,” as Paul elsewhere refers to the community of Jews and Gentiles who follow Christ by this name .

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

BTW, this simply is stating the blessings on two groups, as the Galatian Church had both believing Gentiles and Jews, respectively.

 

[crossnote]

They did. Chapter 1:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleannes ...
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections ...
God gave them over to a reprobate mind ...
Chapter 11 (9-11 actually) just happens to be focusing on Israel and God's use of them for redemptive history.

Ok, so why did Paul call it a mystery in Rom 11:25 and single out Israel, when according to you, the Gentiles, at this present time have also had their hearts hardened?

I also notice, Paul does not say "a partial hardening has come upon the Gentiles, until the fullness of Israel has come in."

Yes, they certainly have been 'used' for redemptive history. Another question for strict free-willers.

 

[JohnRH]

Ok, so why did Paul call it a mystery in Rom 11:25 and single out Israel, when according to you, the Gentiles, at this present time have also had their hearts hardened?

I also notice, Paul does not say "a partial hardening has come upon the Gentiles, until the fullness of Israel has come in."

Yes, they certainly have been 'used' for redemptive history. Another question for strict free-willers.

Because they are the firstfruit and the root. To them pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom Christ came.
That's their calling. God hadn't called the Gentiles to that service. It has nothing to do with the free will that all Jews & Gentiles equally have at all times.
Blinding has to do with perception. The will doesn't perceive, it chooses among what is already perceived. The only things that can be perceived are the things that God has revealed. It's better (both for Israel and their hearers) that they're partially blinded to God's revelation than to see it clearly and willfully misrepresent it, bringing damnation on themselves.

 

[crossnote]

Because they are the firstfruit and the root. To them pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom Christ came.
That's their calling. God hadn't called the Gentiles to that service. It has nothing to do with the free will that all Jews & Gentiles equally have at all times.
Blinding has to do with perception. The will doesn't perceive, it chooses among what is already perceived. The only things that can be perceived are the things that God has revealed. It's better (both for Israel and their hearers) that they're partially blinded to God's revelation than to see it clearly and willfully misrepresent it, bringing damnation on themselves.

Check on the first , second and third sentence.

God hardening their hearts has nothing to do with the will? Explain.

God has revealed as much to the Jew as the Gentile through the Gospel.

Why do you think the Jews would misrepresent God's revelation any more than the Gentiles have already done. (Take Rome as an example or the multitudinous cults).

 

[garee]

Check on the first , second and third sentence.

God hardening their hearts has nothing to do with the will? Explain.

God has revealed as much to the Jew as the Gentile through the Gospel.

Why do you think the Jews would misrepresent God's revelation any more than the Gentiles have already done. (Take Rome as an example or the multitudinous cults).

God used the corrupted flesh of Jew to represent the clean and unclean .Or those redeemed and those not. Just like with food or animals to represent belief and unbelief (no faith) He performs that as a ceremonial law . The corrupted flesh of a Jew is no different then the flesh of a gentile .The reformation has come.

We are born with hard hearts . Hardening would be the fact that God has not softened them. They remain the same unless God works in a person to both will and perform his good pleasure.

Free will is to do the will of the father who works in us to make it possible to find rest in our softened new heart

 

[JohnRH]

Why do you think the Jews would misrepresent God's revelation any more than the Gentiles have already done.

I didn't say they would. "Would" is hypothetical. God gave (no 'woulds' about it) His revelation to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Gentiles couldn't misrepresent what they didn't have in the first place.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? ... 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before
you this day?
Psalm 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them.

 

[crossnote]

God used the corrupted flesh of Jew to represent the clean and unclean .Or those redeemed and those not. Just like with food or animals to represent belief and unbelief (no faith) He performs that as a ceremonial law . The corrupted flesh of a Jew is no different then the flesh of a gentile .The reformation has come.

We are born with hard hearts . Hardening would be the fact that God has not softened them. They remain the same unless God works in a person to both will and perform his good pleasure.

Free will is to do the will of the father who works in us to make it possible to find rest in our softened new heart

Thanks for trying.

 

[crossnote]

Gentiles couldn't misrepresent what they didn't have in the first place.

They had the preaching of Enoch and Noah at least.

It's better (both for Israel and their hearers) that they're partially blinded to God's revelation than to see it clearly and willfully misrepresent it, bringing damnation on themselves.

Why do you think (there's a chance) that they would misrepresent it any more than the Gentiles IF they had clearly seen it?