FROM THE DESK OF......

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Avoid churches and studies that emphasize doctrine rather than relationship.
It seems in the church today spirituality and knowing Christ is measured by the accuracy of one's doctrine. Not even remotely true.
Avoid meetings that stress doctrine instead of relationship.

That's the way I started out. Went on for years. Then I realized I was wrong. True doctrine will liberate a congregation so the spirit can work unimpeded. The problem with most doctrine heavy churches is that they are heavy in doctrines of men that quench the spirit. Churches that only emphasize relationship lean towards gnosticism/mysticism. Without the constraint of doctrine, people will think any spiritual manifestation is holy.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have literally seen that doctrine is important. And I don't mean freewill versus Calvinism. I can understand how both men have come to what they've come to there and where they are. I mean essential doctrine like Jesus was God in the flesh and the trinity.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But then I've also seen that a man with very firm doctrine but who isn't walking in the Spirit has nothing.
If he has been taught firm doctrine though, I have a lot of hope for him.
A man who has neither is just scary to me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's the way I started out. Went on for years. Then I realized I was wrong. True doctrine will liberate a congregation so the spirit can work unimpeded. The problem with most doctrine heavy churches is that they are heavy in doctrines of men that quench the spirit. Churches that only emphasize relationship lean towards gnosticism/mysticism. Without the constraint of doctrine, people will think any spiritual manifestation is holy.

Sometimes churches that stress doctrine are dead because they are led by professional pastors who want to maintain control so that their livelihood isn't threatened. And the church members love it so because they are told what they want to hear.

A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? Jeremiah 5:30-31​

 

[Lewiz]

The prodigal son never stopped believing his father was his father

He just wanted to try things on his own, And realised like all of us who haved done this how fruitless this is, We go to our knees real quick because it never works.

Thats we we always return (plus jesus said he would come after us)

Hi eternally-grateful,
There are several words and phrases in the NT that indicate otherwise:

• Falling away
• apostasy
• reprobate
• rebellion

These words are all through the NT, and they can't be ignored.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi eternally-grateful,
There are several words and phrases in the NT that indicate otherwise:

• Falling away
• apostasy
• reprobate
• rebellion

These words are all through the NT, and they can't be ignored.

Is it something we should fear, that we could fall away and become reprobate?
If so, what should we do to NOT find ourselves in that situation?

 

[Lewiz]

The only people that does that is you, imagining we see this self righteous thingy every time people mention works.

That's not true, That's your imagination.

Well, you guys do use the 'self-righteous' phrase quite a bit, as well as 'the flesh', so no, it's not imagination.
Maybe you just thought you didn't do it as much.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Avoid churches and studies that emphasize doctrine rather than relationship.

It seems in the church today spirituality and knowing Christ is measured by the accuracy of one's doctrine. Not even remotely true.

Avoid meetings that stress doctrine instead of relationship.

How about a proper balance between doctrine and practice (relationships included)? That is not exactly impossible, so your recommendations are not helpful. Scripture makes it clear that BOTH are necessary, and BOTH should be kept in balance.

We are to always remember that both GRACE (relationships) and TRUTH (doctrine) came by Jesus Christ. So what you are suggesting is not even supported by Scripture.

As to this OP, neither is it supported by Scripture. Our obedience does not guarantee our eternal security. But the ABSOLUTE OBEDIENCE of Christ certainly does.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

He didn't exactly say doctrine wasn't important. He was saying where he thought the stress should be, not that there should be NO doctrine...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hey ralph, when you come back, just wanted to let you know I enjoyed talking with you.
You're sort of like...joanie to me, where I can fully understand most of what you say but there's just one thing I don't quite understand in your thinking. But I'm working on it!

In the end, the only thing that matters to me is if someone is growing in trusting Him. I don't care so much about the things I can't understand about their thinking, just are they coming to trust Him more and more. It is a race to keep trusting to the end that we're in after all and it is by our trust that we overcome.

I really don't even care if I think someone is dead wrong on one of their views, although I do care if it might cause someone real harm to their trust and so I will give my rebuttal, sometimes strongly but hopefully without adding my flesh to it.

 

[Lewiz]

Is it something we should fear, that we could fall away and become reprobate?
If so, what should we do to NOT find ourselves in that situation?

• Faithfulness from the heart
  
• Obedience
• Good works

EVERY TIME Paul lists a group of sins that will separate us from God, he will say "from the heart comes...."
It's always about the heart of man, and not just actions.
True commitment comes from the heart.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

• Faithfulness from the heart
  
• Obedience
• Good works

EVERY TIME Paul lists a group of sins that will separate us from God, he will say "from the heart comes...."
It's always about the heart of man, and not just actions.
True commitment comes from the heart.

Could you explain those three things a little more? If you have time?

 

[RickyZ]

well you. yeah, Because that's all you talk about

But everyone, No. We can talk about works, and it is not legalism, because our works procede from God and are not done to earn salvation, To gain salvation, pr to maintain salvation.

You want people to stop saying those things. then stop making salvation determined by them

I actually hardly ever say a word here, precisely because people hear what they want me to say, instead of listening to what I actually do say, all with the intent of taking target practice. Case in point.

When we learn to listen with the intent to hear instead of the intent to respond, we better understand what is being said.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, he will beat the fish into harmless plowshares, but the way he will do it is by beating it against EG until it is a harmless piece of meat.

Uh the fish or EG?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ralph-]

Hey ralph, when you come back, just wanted to let you know I enjoyed talking with you.

I liked talking to you too.

You're sort of like...joanie to me, where I can fully understand most of what you say but there's just one thing I don't quite understand in your thinking. But I'm working on it!

You actually listen. That's why it's enjoyable to talk to you.

What's the one thing you don't quite understand?

 

[Ralph-]

How about a proper balance between doctrine and practice (relationships included)?

Sure, why not.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

Avoid churches that think doctrinal accuracy is the measure that shows you are saved and know Christ. Walking as he walked is what it means to know him.

 

[Ralph-]

...essential doctrine like Jesus was God in the flesh and the trinity.

And they are called essential for a reason. There are doctrines that you can not deviate from or be in question about no matter what.

It's NOT okay to have inaccuracies about those essential doctrines. But there are many doctrines and beliefs that do not matter toward knowing Christ and being like him in this life. And there are doctrines that some people think are essential which are not.

Once saved always saved is a good example. There are those who insist you can not be saved if you do not believe in once saved always saved. Not true at all. It's an interesting but non essential doctrine. It certainly isn't something to base a church on.

 

[Ralph-]

That's the way I started out. Went on for years. Then I realized I was wrong. True doctrine will liberate a congregation so the spirit can work unimpeded. The problem with most doctrine heavy churches is that they are heavy in doctrines of men that quench the spirit. Churches that only emphasize relationship lean towards gnosticism/mysticism. Without the constraint of doctrine, people will think any spiritual manifestation is holy.

You can't go wrong with the fruit of the Spirit. Make it the end all of the Christian experience and you can't go wrong. That is true spirituality. Not the gifts, not signs and wonders........ but walking in the fruit of the Spirit. That is the sum total of the Christian life. That is the compass setting that keeps the believer from being buffeted about by every wind of doctrine and driven off course. Keep that as the goal and you will not fall or be led astray.

 

[Ralph-]

So for someone like me who has gone to many churches and just immediately knew I needed to leave,(ex: you need to wear a dress if you want to come back, all of the miracles did not literally happen, if you aren't healed it's your own fault for such little faith) and who has not been able to find one, or find a meeting in someones home, what is your advice for how to become acquainted with the Holy Spirit. I mean, I guess the good news is Jesus said when you receive the Holy Spirit He will teach you and you won't have need of any man to teach you and He will guide you into all truth, which is a relief to someone who hasn't yet been able to find a church....so would your advice be to just keep trusting that He said the truth in that and WILL lead me to truth and teach me?

I have something to say about all this..................when I get back.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And they are called essential for a reason. There are doctrines that you can not deviate from or be in question about no matter what.

It's NOT okay to have inaccuracies about those essential doctrines. But there are many doctrines and beliefs that do not matter toward knowing Christ and being like him in this life. And there are doctrines that some people think are essential which are not.

Once saved always saved is a good example. There are those who insist you can not be saved if you do not believe in once saved always saved. Not true at all. It's an interesting but non essential doctrine. It certainly isn't something to base a church on.

I agree its not a doctrine essential to being saved, because I believed against it for a long time and the Holy Spirit still never left me. I do believe it becomes essential to our growth in trust though at a certain point. God knows when.

After I met God I became very angry at Him for what He did to Jesus. I told Him He could have found a better way. I decided I didn't like God that much but I loved Jesus and so He was the one I talked to. Can you imagine my later surprise when I read the beginning of John again??